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Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

nytimes.com

201–210 of 402 posts

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#201

Whats wrong with stoicism. Feelings are fleeting in general didn't lead me to positive places. I think we should put a high value on people that can handle their own problems.

>I think we should put a high value on people that can handle their own problems.

Try as I might, I have no idea what this has to do with feelings. Are you making an assumption that people who acknowledge or express their feelings are not handling problems?

And of course, as others have pointed out, stoicism doesn't suggest not pondering over feelings.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#202

How are we, men, supposed to take these articles seriously when we have so many examples of how bad it is to share our feelings? Look at the character assassination of Stallman last week. He shared his feelings with some women, and look at what happened to him. If he had not communicated his desire to date some of these women, and not communicated his feelings about the confusing ethics (in his mind) surrounding sexu…

>He shared his feelings with some women, and look at what happened to him.

I don't think he shared any feelings - he expressed his views. Very orthogonal to sharing feelings.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#203

Whats wrong with stoicism. Feelings are fleeting in general didn't lead me to positive places. I think we should put a high value on people that can handle their own problems.

I agree. I find that the healthiest people in my life don't seem to be the types prone to endless rumination. I think this is where meditation (and stoicism) deviates from some types of psychotherapy and most support groups. Meditation teaches you to look at feelings dispassionately, which helps you lessen their power. This is very different than treating each emotion as if it is "correct" and in need of resolution v…

>I find that the healthiest people in my life don't seem to be the types prone to endless rumination.

Rumination is unhealthy. And believe it or not, one of the antidotes to it is being able to communicate ones feelings effectively. In my experience, more expressive people tend not to suffer ruminating thoughts.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What were the men's spaces before? Legitimate question as I may be too young to have known them.

There were all-male colleges and many all-male secondary schools (mostly private) in the US till the 1960s.

It's worth noting that many institutions you would not have thought of as "men's colleges" per se were indeed all male -- Caltech didn't admit women as undergrads until 1970.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our society will always value men who are confident, this is so much deeper to me than being scared to share your feelings because “it’s gay”. Women are attracted to confidence, employers reward confidence, hiring managers are impressed by confidence. Vulnerability and weakness are just not rewarded for men or women, but especially for men.

I want to push back on your assertion that vulnerability is inherently equivalent to weakness. Our society currently says it is, but I could equally imagine a future in which being vulnerable and honest about your feelings is seen as a feat of strength and courage -- because it DOES take a lot of courage, and even confidence, to be open and honest about your feelings.

So having feelings is the new peacocking?

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#206

I recently did the NWTA weekend retreat with the ManKind Project and found it a surprisingly profound experience. I would recommend it for most men I’ve known. Happy to answer any questions anyone has. I’m not surprised to see so much pushback and gatekeeping here from other men, or suggestions that encouraging men to find spaces to “talk about their feelings” are a radical feminist ploy to subvert true masculinity,…

It's a mainstream idea now that masculinity is toxic, so it's not surprising that people are projecting that onto this. Calling it "New Warrior Training Adventure" comes across as super patronizing. "ManKind" isn't great either. The names alone are surely responsible for much of the pushback that you're seeing. I did a bit of digging though, trying to keep an open mind, and I was surprised to find that MKP is indeed…

Point of logic: it's a mainstream idea that there exists a type of masculinity that is toxic (strict subset) not that all masculinity is toxic.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#207

I feel this article demonstrates why gender equality is damn hard for us right now. I'm male. I believe that has had a significant effect on my upbringing. I'm an individual. I believe a whole lot of things have had a significant effect on my upbringing. Why would I want to try to resolve my issues within this gendered framework? Am I really primarily male? That seems like a forced choice to me.

Agree in many ways, from the other mode of this bimodal distribution.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, neat. I had no idea there was a name for "islamic patterns", but they look like exactly what I expected. People have been making this sort of stuff since way before LSD was invented, but I can't help notice how incredibly similar the patterns are to psychedelic hallucinations. To see them described as "sacred geometries" makes a lot of sense for reasons I can't quite explain.

Yes, it’s very fun. Studying this is the rabbit hole of rabbit holes. I recommend the podcast The Portal by Eric Weinstein if you want the idea equivalent of this stuff.

In case anyone else is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM9f0W2KD5s

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#209

How are we, men, supposed to take these articles seriously when we have so many examples of how bad it is to share our feelings? Look at the character assassination of Stallman last week. He shared his feelings with some women, and look at what happened to him. If he had not communicated his desire to date some of these women, and not communicated his feelings about the confusing ethics (in his mind) surrounding sexu…

I think some of the articles recommend you find some good guys to talk to in a private setting, rather than posting things on your doorplate at a university, for instance. Talk with some good guy friends first if you think having sex with 14-year-olds is ok, and perhaps they'll give you some feedback so you don't have to hash it out on the public stage.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#210

Whats wrong with stoicism. Feelings are fleeting in general didn't lead me to positive places. I think we should put a high value on people that can handle their own problems.

>I think we should put a high value on people that can handle their own problems. Try as I might, I have no idea what this has to do with feelings. Are you making an assumption that people who acknowledge or express their feelings are not handling problems? And of course, as others have pointed out, stoicism doesn't suggest not pondering over feelings.

There's a subtle line between repressing and ruminating.

This may be colored by my experience of mental illness, but generally I've learned/grown more from pondering and sorting out feelings in the past rather than right now. It's easy to fall into a trap of "worshipping your pain" (or your hypomanic euphoria for that matter).

OTOH I'm very appreciative of the dispassionate attitude encouraged by stoicism and meditation, etc. -- but that kind of wisdom is acquired with work, like building muscle. "You should lift heavy things!" is both an interesting aspirational model and dangerous advice if it isn't culturally obvious that you can get hurt lifting heavy things while not in shape.

(Edit: stoicism/meditation etc. are more or less like "second-order repression": as you acknowledge your fingertips or your breath, you acknowledge that you have feelings in order to theoretically understand them (locus of control/illusion of self). The danger is that letting go of first-order repression, you can let yourself have feelings about your feelings -- feeling good about feeling miserable would be the common type.)

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