Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#171

Post by apatters » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 2:47 AM UTC

ericmcer wrote: post #130

bmarquez wrote: post #3

I participated in men's work, not specifically the ManKind Project but a closely related organization. I personally found it helpful doing weekly check-ins and having people holding me accountable to my goals. Unfortunately, the stigma regarding men sharing feelings is prevalent in western society, and it's not only the men causing it. When I told several female friends about the work they did, their response was: "A…

Our society will always value men who are confident, this is so much deeper to me than being scared to share your feelings because “it’s gay”. Women are attracted to confidence, employers reward confidence, hiring managers are impressed by confidence. Vulnerability and weakness are just not rewarded for men or women, but especially for men.

Most people believe that vulnerability is a weakness and a disadvantage but this is demonstrably untrue. Showing vulnerability is a way to develop rapport and connection with other people. Here is a great example using Jennifer Lawrence who is particularly good at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btud-zsdmk4

There are definitely caveats to this. It has to be done a certain way. It works better when you already have some status. And I'd absolutely agree that society lets women express more vulnerability than men. In a hypermasculine environment like a group of socially clueless 20something males at a tech company, you will probably want to show vulnerability less often.

But with the general population and normal people, it's really fine and even good to show some vulnerability, just do it in the right context.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#172

Post by fragmede » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 2:47 AM UTC

bmarquez wrote: post #3

I participated in men's work, not specifically the ManKind Project but a closely related organization. I personally found it helpful doing weekly check-ins and having people holding me accountable to my goals. Unfortunately, the stigma regarding men sharing feelings is prevalent in western society, and it's not only the men causing it. When I told several female friends about the work they did, their response was: "A…

I've found that depends on which generation you're interacting with. Millenials seem far more able to say "I love you" to people that they love outside of their immediate biological family. It's not just the women, either. Men are able to express their feelings to other men in a non-romantic way. Absent is the toxic homophobia that has so colored previous generations.

Hell, their recognition of non-binary genders, preferred pronouns, and a singular 'they' pronoun, speaks volumes as to how much ideas around gender and masculinity has changed. Not that long ago, the idea that a person's gender didn't fit neatly into one of two boxes was unthinkinable.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#173

Post by kortilla » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 2:49 AM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #162

taneq wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same goes for virtually any space that used to be male-only. It's become socially unacceptable (and often illegal) to exclude females from anything, while it's still perfectly OK to exclude males.

What’s an example of a male-excluding space you’ve seen that couldn’t have a female-excluding counterpart?

Boy Scouts

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#174

Post by ryanwaggoner » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 2:52 AM UTC

anon9001 wrote: post #159

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #105

I recently did the NWTA weekend retreat with the ManKind Project and found it a surprisingly profound experience. I would recommend it for most men I’ve known. Happy to answer any questions anyone has. I’m not surprised to see so much pushback and gatekeeping here from other men, or suggestions that encouraging men to find spaces to “talk about their feelings” are a radical feminist ploy to subvert true masculinity,…

It's a mainstream idea now that masculinity is toxic, so it's not surprising that people are projecting that onto this. Calling it "New Warrior Training Adventure" comes across as super patronizing. "ManKind" isn't great either. The names alone are surely responsible for much of the pushback that you're seeing. I did a bit of digging though, trying to keep an open mind, and I was surprised to find that MKP is indeed…

I find the comparisons to cults to be completely bizarre. It's definitely not a cult. Or at least, not a very good one. You can leave if you want, you don't have to participate in anything you don't want to, there's no "drive to recruit more members", or even really to become a member at all, it's staffed by volunteers, there's no central figure or authority like most cults, there's very little pressure to participate after the NWTA beyond encouragement to consider attending the weekly or biweekly groups that the article talks about or perhaps volunteering to staff a future NWTA. Placing it between scientology and Tony Robbins is completely off base imo, but I have no direct experience with either. All I'd say is that if they're trying create a cult to rope people into an organization, they're doing a terrible job of it. And it's not even clear what the goal would be. The suggested monthly donation of $10 to support the nonprofit if you do become a member, which again, they don't really push at all? Seems like a pretty shitty cult to spend decades ramping up.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#175

Post by jimkleiber » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 2:52 AM UTC

bmarquez wrote: post #3

I participated in men's work, not specifically the ManKind Project but a closely related organization. I personally found it helpful doing weekly check-ins and having people holding me accountable to my goals. Unfortunately, the stigma regarding men sharing feelings is prevalent in western society, and it's not only the men causing it. When I told several female friends about the work they did, their response was: "A…

Yeah, I'm glad you pointed out that it's not just us men pressuring each other to speak/feel in certain ways. I think so many of us reinforce the emotional code on men and on each other. I'm guilty of doing it as well.

While a woman may have told me "don't cry (or be sad)," "don't be a baby (or express helplessness)," "don't be lazy (or feel too relaxed)," or "stop being so jealous," I have also told people "don't worry," "relax (or don't feel stressed)," "chill out (don't be angry)," and others.

I try as much as I can to let people feel whatever they are feeling, annnnnd I'm still human and project a lot of my cultural expectations on others and myself. Really grateful to have this space on HN for this conversation and to further the conversation :-D

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#176

Post by bnjms » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 2:53 AM UTC

DollarGuru wrote: post #133

Thriptic wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your point, that same stigma about LGBT guys being weak, feminine, and emotional is one of the many factors that stops a lot of people from coming out too.

Its understandable why we make those assumptions because those camp and effeminate LGBT members stand out so much. The LGBT members that don't have those characteristics you would never know they were LGBT.

Don’t know why you’re being downvoted. This seems mostly true to me. One thing I’ve noticed is younger gay men still seem gay but don’t seem as effeminate as the older men. Maybe that’s just selection bias but it seems like the culture doesn’t ask for as strong of signaling as it did in the past.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#177

Post by ryanwaggoner » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 2:59 AM UTC

77pt77 wrote: post #161

castlecrasher2 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sometimes being strong means to become vulnerable. This is true so long as you appear vulnerable, not weak.

What is the difference? Give examples of vulnerability that is not also weakness.

I prefer to use the term "open" instead of vulnerable, to avoid exactly the situation you're pointing out. And you can be open without being weak or vulnerable if you have self-confidence. Not faked confidence, but the genuine kind that comes from dealing with your shit instead of repressing it and putting on a mask of fake confidence, strength, stoicism, invulnerability, etc.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#178

Post by ryanwaggoner » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 3:01 AM UTC

nitwit005 wrote: post #160

lonelappde wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is illogical about discussing feelings? Is it illogical to ask for food if you are hungry?

If he just feels worse, it's certainly illogical to keep doing it. It's fairly common for people to have adverse reactions to therapy. Not everyone reacts the same to this sort of thing.

That's kind of a spurious argument to make without drawing it out a bit. Exercise doesn't feel good (at first) if you're morbidly obese, but that's because you really need it.

Adverse reactions to therapy might mean that therapy isn't for you. But more commonly, I think it probably means that you don't have the right therapist and / or you have some really heavy, painful shit that you need to deal with but don't want to. Otherwise you wouldn't be having "adverse reactions" to simply sitting in a room with another human to talk about your life.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#179

Post by jimkleiber » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 3:03 AM UTC

cwbrandsma wrote: post #51

bmarquez wrote: post #3

I participated in men's work, not specifically the ManKind Project but a closely related organization. I personally found it helpful doing weekly check-ins and having people holding me accountable to my goals. Unfortunately, the stigma regarding men sharing feelings is prevalent in western society, and it's not only the men causing it. When I told several female friends about the work they did, their response was: "A…

I’m not sure this is only western society. Is there an indigenous culture that values male emotions without stigma? As I think about Asia and Africa, I’m drawing a blank on this. But I’d be happy to be shown wrong.

When you say "male emotions," I feel a bit unsure which emotions you mean. Sadness? Anger? Confusion? Pride? I'm not sure if there is a culture, indigenous or not, that values the expression of all emotions, and if it does, not sure if the people in the culture walk the talk, so to say. I take it back, I think many religions seem to value the expression of most emotions, especially Buddhism, at least in theory, and yet I don't know how many people achieve that in practice. I keep trying and it really really challenges me lol.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#180

Post by jazzyk » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 3:06 AM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #162

taneq wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same goes for virtually any space that used to be male-only. It's become socially unacceptable (and often illegal) to exclude females from anything, while it's still perfectly OK to exclude males.

What’s an example of a male-excluding space you’ve seen that couldn’t have a female-excluding counterpart?

1. Women-only workout areas in gyms - quite common, never seen one for men

2. All-female colleges (many), there is perhaps one or two all-male, if they even still exist