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Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

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Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#171
post #145
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boeing assumed that pilots could be relied upon to recover from a MCAS induced runaway trim. Practice has shown that they can't. Whether Boeing or the pilots is at fault is, from a safety perspective, irrelevant. From a practical perspective, however, Boeing making universal assumptions about pilot capabilities in life-or-death situations, utilizing new equipment that they were not trained on, is anything but irrel…

Their logic was that pilots are trained to deal with runaway trim, a MCAS failure is runaway trim, ergo pilots are trained to deal with a MCAS failure. Obviously that logic turned out to be faulty but it's not like Boeing made some outlandish leap here.

It seems to me that your statement has some assumptions that may not be true, that a MCAS failure caused runaway trim would be recognized as such by the pilots. The ultimate issue may be a runaway trim, but a MCAS failure may not produce the normal indicators that would lead the pilots to diagnose the failure correctly within the time available. Assuming that a MCAS failure is the same thing as a runaway trim failure and should have been handled by the pilots, while technically correct, might not be an appropriate conclusion.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#172
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sport pilot here: total flight hours on an airliner is an almost useless metric, the difference between 2000 hours and 5000 hours is negligible. I know pilots with over 10,000 hours that died in stupid accidents, I know instructors that never performed maneuvers that are almost routine to other pilots that don't even have 500 hours. I know dozens of pilots and there is no average one, some are very good and some are…

Is there any data that would show that? Like crashes with pilot error as a contributing cause mapped to hours, and weighted by bands of hours.

Sorry, trying to clarify but there is too much to tell for a full picture. In a B737 you are not allowed to do most maneuvers you do when flying a small plane or a fighter; not necessarily acrobatics, but even more basic things like stalls, spins, side slips or flying without engines, which is something I regularly do to maintain my proficiency. That means 10,000 hours of limited, routine flying does not make a lot of difference, especially when you get into an incident that is outside of the routine. Good pilots vs bad pilots: some pilots that I know can fly visual without any instruments, knowing the plane and feeling the plane. Many others are barely flying straight if you mask their artificial horizon and VSI.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#173

Actually they must use the worst pilots. If they use average pilots that means 50% of the pilots might be out of their depth flying that plane. What kind of insanity is this?

I suspect the test pilots represent the <1% of pilots who are 10x skillful as a typical pilot.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#176

Actually they must use the worst pilots. If they use average pilots that means 50% of the pilots might be out of their depth flying that plane. What kind of insanity is this?

I agree. Though I would also feel pretty disheartened if I got a call from them after that decision was made - "Hey, we need someone of your skill level to come in and fly some test planes" "...okay"

Call it training not testing and the morale problem probably goes away.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#177
post #145
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boeing assumed that pilots could be relied upon to recover from a MCAS induced runaway trim. Practice has shown that they can't. Whether Boeing or the pilots is at fault is, from a safety perspective, irrelevant. From a practical perspective, however, Boeing making universal assumptions about pilot capabilities in life-or-death situations, utilizing new equipment that they were not trained on, is anything but irrel…

Their logic was that pilots are trained to deal with runaway trim, a MCAS failure is runaway trim, ergo pilots are trained to deal with a MCAS failure. Obviously that logic turned out to be faulty but it's not like Boeing made some outlandish leap here.

You're right. Boeing did not make an outlandish leap of logic, or any leap of logic at all in this context, because it was fully their intent to get away with no training. They worked their butts off to minimize the training, to minimize even the very idea that training was needed, and to prevent the Max from having to be re-certified by the FAA.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#178
post #23

Wouldn't you need the worse pilot you can get? Average doesn't account for the fact that 50% of the sample are WORSE.

I think a better term should be "minimally proficient pilot". One that passes all the requirements, but not by very much. That's the lowest common denominator you should be targeting for certification.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#179
post #153
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about if that info was available to the public? I don't want to put my health and safety on a scale against someone's profitability.

It won't be someone's profitability, it'll be the ticket price that you pay.

Because there is no relationship there at all, nope none, zero.

Re: Plane Tests Must Use Average Pilots, NTSB Says After 737 Max Crashes

#180
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there are many reported incidents from US pilots of stability trim incidents in the FAA's database which, in hindsight, were due to MCAS. The pilots couldn't identify them as such at the time because, of course, they didn't know MCAS existed. But they were able to figure out the corrective action in time to maintain safe flight. (The reports also criticize the flight manual for being inadequate.) https://www.goo…

Also all of the US-based MAXs had the optional AoA Sensor Disagree indicator, which would instantly show the source of the issue. The international pilots were in the dark because Boeing turned a critical safety feature into a revenue stream.

AoA Disagree was supposed to be turned on on all 737 MAXs, but it depended on AoA indication, which was an option. This was a mistake Boeing admitted to and has since corrected.

Options are not all tied to fees, the process of ordering an airplane is quite complicated because of the immense amount of customization each airline does before they even pay for the aircraft. Its unclear how much this option cost, if it cost anything.

The reason why AoA indication is an option is that it requires more advanced training for the pilots, some airlines provide this training and some do not. The airlines are the ultimate decider on how much training pilots will get, Boeing and the FAA can only set minimums.

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