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Open offices are a dead end

nytimes.com

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Re: Open offices are a dead end

#281

Post by kerkeslager »

martinpw wrote: post #271
kerkeslager wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, please read the posts you are responding to. You're not reading my posts. I'm not your enemy here. You're just taking your anger at other people out on me. If you would read my posts, you would see that what I'm proposing is a mixed office space with open areas for those who work best that way (like me), and private areas for people who work best that way (like you). 1. I'm definitely for you having your own,…

I think I am reading your posts - we are just focusing on different aspects. I agree with your ideal - that indeed would be a nice place to be. My concern is more around the reality for most people which is that everyone is in an open office environment. How do you propose to handle that situation assuming no offices are available? Would you still pair program and talk all day? Would you at least first ask your neigh…

The emergent norm at coworking spaces seems to be that you keep the volume down (just above a whisper) and don't talk to people if they have headphones in, as this signals that they're trying to concentrate.

Pair collaboration happens all the time in this sort of setting. These days I'm not the one pair programming, since my coworkers are a 5 hour drive away--it's other people. And they typically don't ask first.

But the reality is that if people are paying to work in an open office coworking space, they've chosen to be there and are at least somewhat extroverted. So those norms aren't likely to fit the needs of people who don't want to be in an open office.

The flipside of that coin is, I don't think introverts get to come into an open office space and determine norms for an office space they don't want to be in anyway. If a coworker communicated to me that they needed more quiet, I'd try to come up with a way to meet that need. But it's a bit aggressive to assume that I will meet your needs without you communicating them, and call me "rude and selfish" when I don't.

In the short-term, if you asked, obviously I'd just quiet down so you'd be able to get done what you needed to get done that day. But that's a short-term solution, and I'm not going to give up my productivity forever. The longer-term solution would be to help you lobby management to get you the privacy you need. Can we designate conference rooms as "quiet spaces" when not in use? Can we schedule all the meetings for one day a week so the conference rooms are not in use the rest of the time? Can we re-examine why we're not letting people work from home? Whatever compromise arises is going to come from us discussing what we both want and coming to an agreement. And if management really isn't amenable to anything that works for you, I'd probably leave the company--I don't particularly like working for authoritarians, even if the open office mandate doesn't harm me directly.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#282

Post by scarface74 »

whycombagator wrote: post #280
scarface74 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In our world with the flexibility most of us have, you can do a lot without using your PTO. One of my coworkers went to India for three weeks and only took about a week off. The rest of the time he worked remotely and put himself on the same schedule as our team based in there. I’ve hardly ever needed to take PTO because of sickness. Most of the time I can work from home if I am contagious or catch up later. I reloca…

> One of my coworkers went to India for three weeks and only took about a week off. Sounds less than ideal. I feel bad that he wasn't able to take all 3 weeks off and fully enjoy his time there. > I’ve hardly ever needed to take PTO because of sickness. Most of the time I can work from home if I am contagious or catch up later. Sounds like a great place/way to work > I relocated out of town for a whole summer, stayed…

Sounds less than ideal. I feel bad that he wasn't able to take all 3 weeks off and fully enjoy his time there.

If he is anything like me, it gives you a good excuse to spend some time with your family and spend some time away from your family without having to be on all the time.

Sounds like a great place/way to work

I can’t telk if you’re being sarcastic. But, I have cold induced asthma. I can go weeks after I’m over my cold and still coughing. But even if that’s not the case, there are plenty of times I feel good enough to work or even work out (at home) but want to be considerate enough not to be around other people.

Sounds stressful

Why would that be stressful? At the time, my parents house was larger than mine and they had two spare bedrooms - one for my wife and I, one for me and they had a separate office I could set up in.

The alternative, was staying in an extended stay (not bad, just small) - which we did while school was in session.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#283

Post by scarface74 »

whycombagator wrote: post #279
scarface74 wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should it be 28 days? On average it is only 11 days ( https://www.tsheets.com/resources/pto-survey )

> Why should it be 28 days? You must be an employer ;) A few reasons I like at least 28 days: You get to truly disconnect/recharge, prevents burnout, I get to spend more time with friends and family, my stress/anxiety and general mental health are improved, I get to _actually_ travel. I could go on. 11 days over the entire year gives me time for what? Not much. > On average it is only 11 days In the US. That's also o…

A few reasons I like at least 28 days: You get to truly disconnect/recharge, prevents burnout, I get to spend more time with friends and family, my stress/anxiety and general mental health are improved, I get to _actually_ travel. I could go

If I am 45 years old working at a job that is stressful or giving me anxiety or burning me out, I’m doing it wrong. That hold thing I said about “optionality”? If any job is giving me continuous stress, it’s time to job hunt. Why would a software engineer in 2019 stress when there are so many jobs out there?

Most adults (friends and family) also have jobs.

the US. That's also one of the worst averages in the the industrialized world and the US is one of the only nations to not set a minimum for PTO[0]

Seeing that I am not going to be leaving the US anytime soon...

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#284

Post by scarface74 »

SomeOldThrow wrote: post #77
TheMerovingian wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree to an extent. I think remote work is a swing in the opposite direction of open offices, but it can go too far. Remote work does not allow developers to collaborate easily; sometimes getting several people at a white board is necessary and efficient. Offices or very small cube farms (of 4-6 people in an enclosed area) seem an ideal middle ground where people working on the same thing can talk while not being b…

> Remote work does not allow developers to collaborate easily Laughable; phones have worked for decades. Your brain and mouth and ears don’t stop working, do they? Furthermore you are greatly overestimating the proportion of high intensity local collaboration to grunt work. The vast majority of tech jobs could be remote overnight and nothing would even slow down. These jobs are not hard or collaboration intense regar…

I worked at a satellite office where all of my team worked 200 miles away. We worked well together, but there was nothing like the times I would drive up there and we could be in a room, at a whiteboard and drawing things out.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#285

Post by scarface74 »

cdeonier wrote: post #68

I'm not a fan of open office spaces, but I don't think the article fully captures the problem that the open office space is addressing. Our company has a team dedicated to the design of our office space, and they're trying to balance against multiple stakeholders' needs, from different functions (engineering vs legal), to work environment needs (1:1 vs meeting room vs quiet place), all shoved into a fixed and (relati…

From my understanding, it's easier to scale environments that are open-office. For a startup that's always have to contend with finding space for their ever-growing teams,

I’m sure there is plenty of space if they let everyone work from home or come in on an ad gov basis.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#286

Post by scarface74 »

save_ferris wrote: post #122

I used to think that noise was the worst distraction to deal with in an open office until I took a job where a coworker in our open office decided not to practice basic hygiene. The smell is just horrible. It’s far and away the most distracting thing I’ve ever experienced in my career. They dress up and put in effort to look nice in the office, but everyone instantly knows when they walk into a room. Honestly, I’m he…

After I checked the legality, I went as far as not hiring someone who was a smoker and told my manager exactly why I wasn’t hiring him. I didn’t want to be around the smell.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#287

Post by cameronbrown »

smt88 wrote: post #259
cameronbrown wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you're also missing lots of destructive bandwidth (interruptions, gossip, etc.) These things are a component of being around others though. Gossip never goes away, it just migrates. > People socialize outside of offices all the time. There's nothing stopping remote coworkers from meeting in the same place every day, going out to lunch, etc. True that, but arguably the best benefit of remote work is to.. well..…

> True that, but arguably the best benefit of remote work is to.. well.. live remotely. This is actually one of the biggest reasons for an employer to choose remote-only. It's very difficult to find everyone you need in a single city at a salary you can afford. I should've also mentioned that some of my closest relationships are with people I almost never meet in person. The US is full of people who are close to thei…

> I should've also mentioned that some of my closest relationships are with people I almost never meet in person. The US is full of people who are close to their families, but only see them a few times a year.

I don't know man - there's something uncomfortable about the majority of our time being spent stuck to a computer. Even as a programmer being around and talking to others is a break from that.

Video calls will never be good enough.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#289

Post by whycombagator »

scarface74 wrote: post #283
whycombagator wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should it be 28 days? You must be an employer ;) A few reasons I like at least 28 days: You get to truly disconnect/recharge, prevents burnout, I get to spend more time with friends and family, my stress/anxiety and general mental health are improved, I get to _actually_ travel. I could go on. 11 days over the entire year gives me time for what? Not much. > On average it is only 11 days In the US. That's also o…

A few reasons I like at least 28 days: You get to truly disconnect/recharge, prevents burnout, I get to spend more time with friends and family, my stress/anxiety and general mental health are improved, I get to _actually_ travel. I could go If I am 45 years old working at a job that is stressful or giving me anxiety or burning me out, I’m doing it wrong. That hold thing I said about “optionality”? If any job is givi…

I am based in the US...

I know of dozens of companies where one could take 28 days PTO, get paid handsomely, and not have to solve CS trivia during the interview.

Good PTO isn’t the norm, but I feel it should be.

If you’re happy spending more of your life working, good for you.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#290

Post by SomeOldThrow »

scarface74 wrote: post #284
SomeOldThrow wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remote work does not allow developers to collaborate easily Laughable; phones have worked for decades. Your brain and mouth and ears don’t stop working, do they? Furthermore you are greatly overestimating the proportion of high intensity local collaboration to grunt work. The vast majority of tech jobs could be remote overnight and nothing would even slow down. These jobs are not hard or collaboration intense regar…

I worked at a satellite office where all of my team worked 200 miles away. We worked well together, but there was nothing like the times I would drive up there and we could be in a room, at a whiteboard and drawing things out.

Sure, but that’s ultimately a per-capita performance metric whose reduction might be acceptable if costs for remote come down, much like accepting that an open office has an acceptable per-capita efficiency decrease. I am perfectly capable of pairing over video chat, even if it is not ideal.
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