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Open offices are a dead end

nytimes.com

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Re: Open offices are a dead end

#271

Post by martinpw »

kerkeslager wrote: post #269
martinpw wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no_wave's reply is exactly on point. You don't need the open office to pair program, you just need to be with one other person. So go to an office, because otherwise you are disturbing everyone else in the room with your pair programming if you are going to be talking 7 hours straight. In an open office that is plain rude and selfish. And by the way I would love to work in a private office, but that is not an option.…

Again, please read the posts you are responding to. You're not reading my posts. I'm not your enemy here. You're just taking your anger at other people out on me. If you would read my posts, you would see that what I'm proposing is a mixed office space with open areas for those who work best that way (like me), and private areas for people who work best that way (like you). 1. I'm definitely for you having your own,…

I think I am reading your posts - we are just focusing on different aspects.

I agree with your ideal - that indeed would be a nice place to be. My concern is more around the reality for most people which is that everyone is in an open office environment. How do you propose to handle that situation assuming no offices are available? Would you still pair program and talk all day? Would you at least first ask your neighbors if they are ok with that? And what would you do if they said no?

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#272

Post by cglotr »

umvi wrote: post #23

Unpopular opinion, but I actually think open offices make me more productive. When I'm in a private office, the temptation to watch YouTube, or otherwise read/do unrelated work stuff is much higher. However, I do like having a private office to eat lunch.

Ideally companies shouldn't care what you are doing minute by minute as long as you produce quality result

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#273

Post by scarface74 »

whycombagator wrote: post #267
scarface74 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just like saying “I am paid well”. But if you’re not making $300K a year, people on HN act like you’re living in poverty and then you have to explain that $135K+ allows you to buy a nice big new house in the burbs in a good school system as long as you stay away from the west coast. In other words, it details the conversation.

I'm not sure I follow. I can't tell if you're disagreeing or agreeing with me So, to clarify, PTO can range from something like 0 days to 60 days. Salary variance is much larger and the ceiling is higher, so OP not putting a salary number makes sense. It does not, however, make sense to provide no floor for PTO (which the OP did) IMO the floor for PTO should be 28.

Why should it be 28 days?

On average it is only 11 days (https://www.tsheets.com/resources/pto-survey)

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#274

Post by scarface74 »

whycombagator wrote: post #268
apta wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of this "unlimited PTO" either. It's just a way for the company to save money as they don't owe you anything come the end of the year or when you leave and still have PTO days.

I'll add "flexible"/"untracked"/"open" PTO to the list too I find myself having to scour the internet for what that even means. Turns out for some companies it's a hard limit of 20. For others it's OK if you take off 40 days. Most of the time it appears to mean around 4 weeks or 20 days - which is not great. I have been fortunate enough to enjoy > 28 days PTO for the last 5 years of my career at 2 separate companies.…

In our world with the flexibility most of us have, you can do a lot without using your PTO. One of my coworkers went to India for three weeks and only took about a week off. The rest of the time he worked remotely and put himself on the same schedule as our team based in there.

I’ve hardly ever needed to take PTO because of sickness. Most of the time I can work from home if I am contagious or catch up later.

I relocated out of town for a whole summer, stayed with my parents and worked remotely when we were literally between homes - our lease was up, we were waiting for a house to be built, and my wife doesn’t work during the summer (she works in education.)

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#276

Post by hkai »

scarface74 wrote: post #16

If I could craft the perfect job for me, the one I work at would be it - an intelligent straightforward manager who will speak his mind bluntly and can take it just as well as he can dish it out. He’s mostly concerned with results not whether you kiss his ring. - small company without a lot of bureaucracy -- I have full access to our entire AWS infrastructure - relatively generous PTO - a decent free family health pl…

I'd have a far less negative reaction to the article if it didn't attempt to blame "capitalism" in the title.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#278

Post by kerkeslager »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #266
kerkeslager wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software development.

How does an open space office improve vs working in a single office?

For me, it's mainly that I'm happier, more energized, and more focused. I can point to collaboration effects, but really that's less important for my personal productivity I think.

Just to be clear: I'm not saying an open office is right for everyone. If an open office isn't right for you, then you should be able to work in a private space. I'm just asking that you offer me the same courtesy. There's no reason we have to force everyone to work in the same style of office, when everyone has different working styles.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#279

Post by whycombagator »

scarface74 wrote: post #273
whycombagator wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I follow. I can't tell if you're disagreeing or agreeing with me So, to clarify, PTO can range from something like 0 days to 60 days. Salary variance is much larger and the ceiling is higher, so OP not putting a salary number makes sense. It does not, however, make sense to provide no floor for PTO (which the OP did) IMO the floor for PTO should be 28.

Why should it be 28 days? On average it is only 11 days ( https://www.tsheets.com/resources/pto-survey )

> Why should it be 28 days?

You must be an employer ;)

A few reasons I like at least 28 days: You get to truly disconnect/recharge, prevents burnout, I get to spend more time with friends and family, my stress/anxiety and general mental health are improved, I get to _actually_ travel. I could go on.

11 days over the entire year gives me time for what? Not much.

> On average it is only 11 days

In the US. That's also one of the worst averages in the the industrialized world and the US is one of the only nations to not set a minimum for PTO[0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#280

Post by whycombagator »

scarface74 wrote: post #274
whycombagator wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll add "flexible"/"untracked"/"open" PTO to the list too I find myself having to scour the internet for what that even means. Turns out for some companies it's a hard limit of 20. For others it's OK if you take off 40 days. Most of the time it appears to mean around 4 weeks or 20 days - which is not great. I have been fortunate enough to enjoy > 28 days PTO for the last 5 years of my career at 2 separate companies.…

In our world with the flexibility most of us have, you can do a lot without using your PTO. One of my coworkers went to India for three weeks and only took about a week off. The rest of the time he worked remotely and put himself on the same schedule as our team based in there. I’ve hardly ever needed to take PTO because of sickness. Most of the time I can work from home if I am contagious or catch up later. I reloca…

> One of my coworkers went to India for three weeks and only took about a week off.

Sounds less than ideal. I feel bad that he wasn't able to take all 3 weeks off and fully enjoy his time there.

> I’ve hardly ever needed to take PTO because of sickness. Most of the time I can work from home if I am contagious or catch up later.

Sounds like a great place/way to work

> I relocated out of town for a whole summer, stayed with my parents and worked remotely when we were literally between homes - our lease was up, we were waiting for a house to be built, and my wife doesn’t work during the summer (she works in education.)

Sounds stressful

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