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Open offices are a dead end

nytimes.com

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Re: Open offices are a dead end

#261

Post by scarface74 »

whycombagator wrote: post #255
scarface74 wrote: post #16

If I could craft the perfect job for me, the one I work at would be it - an intelligent straightforward manager who will speak his mind bluntly and can take it just as well as he can dish it out. He’s mostly concerned with results not whether you kiss his ring. - small company without a lot of bureaucracy -- I have full access to our entire AWS infrastructure - relatively generous PTO - a decent free family health pl…

> relatively generous PTO Why not attribute a number to this instead of being vague? I personally think 28 days PTO (not including holidays) is "relatively generous" (for the US).

It’s just like saying “I am paid well”. But if you’re not making $300K a year, people on HN act like you’re living in poverty and then you have to explain that $135K+ allows you to buy a nice big new house in the burbs in a good school system as long as you stay away from the west coast.

In other words, it details the conversation.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#262

Post by BoorishBears »

pwinnski wrote: post #248
BoorishBears wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way is this a valid response to what I said? We moved into a building bigger than our current size yes... so? You don't fill up overnight. Do you hire people on a coin flip? Or make up open positions when it tickles someone's fancy? We were hiring at an incredible rate, but never got to the point of being actively detrimental to our space because once that was barely in sight, we started to move. But having m…

It's a valid response because you seem to be denying any factors other than money, which is ridiculous. I've mentioned lease terms as one major counter-example. It is not enough to lease "larger than you need right now," but given 12-month standard lease terms, you must lease "larger than you will need one year from now," which isn't a factor of money alone.

We had that problem at a different company (lease start actually, being a little far out) and opened a temporary office for 2 months.

There is literally no situation where any moderately competent company is forced to cram people closer than normal except to save money. Even "normal" is defined by money.

Heck, even an incompetent company can pay a competent company figure it out for them.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#263

Post by martinpw »

kerkeslager wrote: post #236
no_wave wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expecting your neighbor to be ok with two people talking to each other for 7 hours straight is just plain rude regardless of your office preference.

Please read the post you are responding to.

no_wave's reply is exactly on point.

You don't need the open office to pair program, you just need to be with one other person. So go to an office, because otherwise you are disturbing everyone else in the room with your pair programming if you are going to be talking 7 hours straight. In an open office that is plain rude and selfish.

And by the way I would love to work in a private office, but that is not an option. So everyone needs to compromise, and that includes not pair programming and talking all day out of respect for your co-workers.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#264

Post by MadWombat »

fwsgonzo wrote: post #50
MadWombat wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is already becoming much more accepted than it was a few years ago, but remote work comes with its own set of problems and nuances. Companies tend to worry about accountability a lot more, mixing work life and off work life is hard, especially if you have a family with kids, having to define your own structure is hard etc.

Not only that but you won't get all the information, the informal stuff, and you will never get promoted. Still, it's better than the alternative.

I think information flow can be designed to accommodate remote work, especially if the company is focusing on remote workers. Same goes for promotions, if the company is focusing on remote work (i.e. would prefer to have more remote workers than office workers) it can and will sort out promotions.

The problems I mentioned seem to me a bit more fundamental, problems of personally coping with working remotely rather than company attitude towards remote workers.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#265

Post by goatinaboat »

curryst wrote: post #223
goatinaboat wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s the perfect job why do you want to pad your CV with junk? Why not pick some stable tech and take the opportunity to get really deeply into it? The only reason to chase buzzwords is if you plan to leave soon!

> Why not pick some stable tech and take the opportunity to get really deeply into it? The only reason to chase buzzwords is if you plan to leave soon! Or because you respect the perspective that introducing new skills brings. I'll pick the example everyone loves to hate; Java developers. I used to work at a shop where most of their people had invested in "stable tech", which for them largely meant writing Java code…

In my present job, which I am mostly happy at, which I think is the best you can really hope for, I do Python, Python and more Python, and I don’t agonise for a single second that I ought to be learning TypeScript or Elixir or Nim instead then something else in 6 months. There’s plenty of new stuff in Python 3.8 to get stuck into and plenty of Python 2.6 code we got that I can improve. That’s what I mean by deeply into it.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#267

Post by whycombagator »

scarface74 wrote: post #261
whycombagator wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> relatively generous PTO Why not attribute a number to this instead of being vague? I personally think 28 days PTO (not including holidays) is "relatively generous" (for the US).

It’s just like saying “I am paid well”. But if you’re not making $300K a year, people on HN act like you’re living in poverty and then you have to explain that $135K+ allows you to buy a nice big new house in the burbs in a good school system as long as you stay away from the west coast. In other words, it details the conversation.

I'm not sure I follow. I can't tell if you're disagreeing or agreeing with me

So, to clarify, PTO can range from something like 0 days to 60 days. Salary variance is much larger and the ceiling is higher, so OP not putting a salary number makes sense. It does not, however, make sense to provide no floor for PTO (which the OP did)

IMO the floor for PTO should be 28.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#268

Post by whycombagator »

apta wrote: post #257
whycombagator wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> relatively generous PTO Why not attribute a number to this instead of being vague? I personally think 28 days PTO (not including holidays) is "relatively generous" (for the US).

None of this "unlimited PTO" either. It's just a way for the company to save money as they don't owe you anything come the end of the year or when you leave and still have PTO days.

I'll add "flexible"/"untracked"/"open" PTO to the list too

I find myself having to scour the internet for what that even means. Turns out for some companies it's a hard limit of 20. For others it's OK if you take off 40 days. Most of the time it appears to mean around 4 weeks or 20 days - which is not great.

I have been fortunate enough to enjoy > 28 days PTO for the last 5 years of my career at 2 separate companies. It has been life changing.

I will never, ever, again go back to accured, or highly limited, PTO - and I encourage anyone who will listen to try to do the same.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#269

Post by kerkeslager »

martinpw wrote: post #263
kerkeslager wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please read the post you are responding to.

no_wave's reply is exactly on point. You don't need the open office to pair program, you just need to be with one other person. So go to an office, because otherwise you are disturbing everyone else in the room with your pair programming if you are going to be talking 7 hours straight. In an open office that is plain rude and selfish. And by the way I would love to work in a private office, but that is not an option.…

Again, please read the posts you are responding to. You're not reading my posts. I'm not your enemy here. You're just taking your anger at other people out on me.

If you would read my posts, you would see that what I'm proposing is a mixed office space with open areas for those who work best that way (like me), and private areas for people who work best that way (like you).

1. I'm definitely for you having your own, private office if that's how you work best.

2. An open office with enforced silence is the worst of both worlds. The extroverts can't work effectively because they can't collaborate, and it's really never quite quiet enough for the introverts. This kind of "compromise" means nobody is happy.

3. Being in the open office isn't just about talking with your pair, it's about being able to collaborate with people outside your pair too.

Re: Open offices are a dead end

#270

Post by scarface74 »

goatinaboat wrote: post #265
curryst wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not pick some stable tech and take the opportunity to get really deeply into it? The only reason to chase buzzwords is if you plan to leave soon! Or because you respect the perspective that introducing new skills brings. I'll pick the example everyone loves to hate; Java developers. I used to work at a shop where most of their people had invested in "stable tech", which for them largely meant writing Java code…

In my present job, which I am mostly happy at, which I think is the best you can really hope for, I do Python, Python and more Python, and I don’t agonise for a single second that I ought to be learning TypeScript or Elixir or Nim instead then something else in 6 months. There’s plenty of new stuff in Python 3.8 to get stuck into and plenty of Python 2.6 code we got that I can improve. That’s what I mean by deeply in…

And what happens when that job disappears? When your company gets acquired? When your boss leaves and you’re stuck under that one person you don’t like and who micromanages. Optionality is important.
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