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Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

spiegel.de

161–170 of 171 posts

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#161
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is something of a bait-and-switch when you segue from neoplatonic "oneness" to Christianity. The concept of "oneness" is vague enough that it cannot be in opposition to science, since it doesn't describe anything consequential or observable. It is basically a feel-good phrase, which is of course perfectly fine. But Christianity implies certain ideas which are absolutely consequential, primarily that a certain h…

Right. "Oneness" does feel good, doesn't it? It's not unmeaningful, either. It is the "perennial philosophy". But you are right, there is a bait-and-switch. I don't claim to describe the beliefs of current Christians, but ancient Christians, often of the near-heretical type (Origen was never sainted for a reason). Just keep in mind that there is no source of truth in Christianity. That's what all the wars were about!…

What are your favourite sources for this information?

It sounds quite compelling.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect it is the regimentation which is what truly killed them when combined with less rigid constraints on thought. There is still a substansial minority who would happily dedicate themselves to introspection and contemplation but they would prefer a space to follow their own guideance. Why bother with a life of thinking if the conclusions are already foregone? The rigid scheduling is an artifact of agrarianism i…

[flagged]

First off "already determined" wasn't about predestination or the future but conclusions for thinking as the exercise.

There is so much wrong with that post it isn't funny - putting aside that it looks like the rant of an archtypical Neal Stevenson character on the fence who gets seduced into the service of a regressive ideology doomed to failure. There is even the same failure to accept change and anxiety over growing old in a different world.

Culture is a Ship of Theseus, period. Even the staunchist traditionalists fail at it fundamentally from the outset because they either seek to keep stagnant what were reforms in the first place or they seek to preserve that which didn't exist even back then. Nothing makes it through the Millenia untouched. A culture which never changes is best known as a dead one.

Do you lament and blame Christianity for destroying paganism? Consider pants barbaric? Consider those from temperate climates too stupid to be civilized? What you either consider that list batshit insane or recognizd the references? Congratulations you have already destroyed a great culture spanning thousands of years already. Except we know these details. Traditions dying out is in no way comparable to losses of archives.

The description of modern European languages cultures and clothings even with the tech difference obscured would beconsidered vastly implauisble by Romans. The languages would be like a bad fanfic.

Also the communists undermining monks with eastern mysticism before Karl Marx was even born! This ridicule is being charitable for it forgets the Protestant reformation, a reaction to corruption within the Catholic church, and their role in destruction along with cynical nobles looking to seize monk maintained properties. Ones once entrusted to them because the godly celebate were assumed most trustworthy akin to the role of Court Eunuchs among hereditary dynasties but with the emasculation kept symbolic with tonsures. There is a reason for that. While there may are differences they are based on the same.

That Western Civilization was considered a separate entity is a flaw. The concept at its best was a post-hoc explanation for rise to colonial dominance that accidentally paints things in in and out groups. At worst it was deliberate.

Marx himself demonstrated some nonsensical ideas of the day about "Asiatic Tyranny as being a more controlled society centered around artifical control of irrigation water instead of force of arms". Showing that the exoticism is continuing an old tradition of consciously or unconsciously using the exotic as a mirror to project what ifs onto. It is like Neopaganism in a way - historians are interested in how they were but most practitioners make it fit to their world. You don't see any

They were always interconnected beyond any tidy sections or categories on maps. The people of the past sure as fuck didn't consider themselves to have a special kinship over those further abroad - hell pre-nationalism they were likely top enemies. It also explains why the "center of Western Civilization" is all over the place with no remotely consistent metric as it is a sharpshooter's fallacy.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#163
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not even getting modern society anymore "19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, jo…

"The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak" And no I'm not even sure if you mean it what you wrote.

mainly that the 'problems of humanity' (e.g. ethics, morality) dealt with in christianity are period-nonspecific and have little to nothing to do with the current level of technological innovation or form of economy/government, and therefore imply that they 'get' current society.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#164
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. "Oneness" does feel good, doesn't it? It's not unmeaningful, either. It is the "perennial philosophy". But you are right, there is a bait-and-switch. I don't claim to describe the beliefs of current Christians, but ancient Christians, often of the near-heretical type (Origen was never sainted for a reason). Just keep in mind that there is no source of truth in Christianity. That's what all the wars were about!…

What are your favourite sources for this information? It sounds quite compelling.

Thanks! I wish someone could put it all together in a book. It is very much a mystery. The best scholars can provide the info, but not the interpretation.

Wouter Hanugraff (read "western esoterism, a guide for the perplexed")

Shwep.net

Pythagorean Sourcebook

Oration on the dignity of man

Iamblicus

Origen

Plotinus

Philo of Alexandria

Many more. It is so fulfilling to read these old texts!

Check Perseus project for searching old texts.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#165
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This description is a bit misleading: - School: Germany mostly has public schools. If you have operated a private school for a few years, you can apply for subsidy. You will receive roughly the amount per pupil that would otherwise be needed to fund the pupil's place at a public school. So this is more or less a zero-sum game for the state. All schools have to obey public school regulations (e.g., on curriculum and e…

From Wikidepia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax#Germany About 70% of church revenues come from church tax (Kirchensteuer). This is about €9.2 billion (in 2010).

This is correct, but also needs to be put into context. You only pay church tax if you are member of one of the churches eligible to collect taxes via the German state tax system. Non-Members don't pay church taxes. So there is again no subsidy involved (except that churces save administration costs because they can use the public tax collection system for free).

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#166
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak" And no I'm not even sure if you mean it what you wrote.

mainly that the 'problems of humanity' (e.g. ethics, morality) dealt with in christianity are period-nonspecific and have little to nothing to do with the current level of technological innovation or form of economy/government, and therefore imply that they 'get' current society.

So gender equality or homosexuality are not falling under moral and ethics?

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#167
post #64
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's religion, not church. Church is an institution. The Catholic church (and apparently particularly the Polish chapter of it) is rotten to its core. That there are good or oblivious people working for it doesn't invalidate that.

There is also the important distinction between a church and The Church. The Church (which I agree is rotten) has very little to do with the day to day running of any given church. We're almost at a point where individual churches are trying to isolate themselves from The Church.

Hah, I'm amazed my comment got flagged. The article is literally about _the German Catholic Church_ and we're talking about _the Polish Catholic Church_, which are both formal organisations. I know Americans have more "churches" than people but in Europe local church communities are normally organised in larger, formal structures.

In the case of the German and Polish Catholic Churches, they're even under direct control of the Vatican, i.e. the Catholic Church proper.

Yes, your local community may be good and if it's an independent church like most religious groups in the US are, it may be completely removed from any greater politics but Catholic churches are very much part of the Catholic Church proper (i.e. if a priest steps out of line, they risk being removed -- which btw is exactly what happened when a Catholic priest in Germany in the 1990s openly preached views that the Church considered too progressive).

A small religious community may hold okay views and be nice and dandy, but organised religion (and especially the Catholic Church) is rotten to the core. And I say that as a baptised & confirmed Catholic in Germany.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#168
post #106
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that in Germany these "church operated" services are heavily subsidised by the German state via regular taxes (not the "church tax" registered church members pay directly to their church via the tax office). In some cases this can be as much as 100% of the operating costs and salaries (although the business is operated in accordance with church labor laws rather than secular laws, allowing e.g. certain f…

This description is a bit misleading: - School: Germany mostly has public schools. If you have operated a private school for a few years, you can apply for subsidy. You will receive roughly the amount per pupil that would otherwise be needed to fund the pupil's place at a public school. So this is more or less a zero-sum game for the state. All schools have to obey public school regulations (e.g., on curriculum and e…

I'm talking about hospitals and other officially church operated institutions:

http://humanist.de/kirchensteuer/krankenhaeuser.html

Hospitals and elderly homes are NOT primarily financed by the insurance of their patients. Public hospitals are funded by the government. Church operated hospitals are funded by the government AND the church, with churches often paying the smaller share. Additionally churches themselves as public organisations receive public subsidies when providing public services, so even the money they do pay into operating these services partially comes from the state.

But in some cases the state literally subsidises the clergy directly:

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/spardebatte-staat... (€ 442 million paid for clergy wages based on a contract from 1803 that was meant to reimburse the Catholic church for lands that were claimed by the state to prop up the aristocracy -- note that this contract with no expiration date was between the Catholic Church and the German Empire, not modern Germany)

Also, "Germany mostly has public schools" -- yes, but child care is often operated by churches while being mostly funded publicly. Note that "Kindergärten" are often considered part of the school system (but definitions for pre-primary education are hazy so I admit I should have clarified).

The point is that the "special deal" church operated services get compared to regular public services is that they get to apply church law, which is uniquely privileged to override common labor protection and anti-discrimination laws. As a "user" they appear almost indistinguishable from non-church operated public services.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#169
post #68
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's religion, not church. Church is an institution. The Catholic church (and apparently particularly the Polish chapter of it) is rotten to its core. That there are good or oblivious people working for it doesn't invalidate that.

This is incorrect. Its original meaning is "assembly", "meeting" and refers to a group of people more than a building/denomination/organization: https://www.compellingtruth.org/definition-church.html .

That's orthogonal to the conversation.

The conversation was clearly about organised religion, i.e. specifically the Catholic Church (in Poland or Germany but also in general as a larger entity). It doesn't get much more organised than the Catholic Church.

It was also clear that "church" in this context is used in the sense of "a formal religious organisation", especially because churches as formal organisations are legal entities in these countries.

What the term _originally meant_ is interesting but utterly irrelevant given that the meaning clearly doesn't match the intended meaning and the intended meaning is widely enough understood (and matches the Polish and German equivalent terminology).

That said, linking to a website operated by a conservative Evangelical ministry that preaches Young Earth Creationism and considers Catholic "non-Christians" ... in a conversation that's primarily about the Catholic church ... is "funny" to say the least.

Re: Germany's Vanishing Monasteries

#170
post #168
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This description is a bit misleading: - School: Germany mostly has public schools. If you have operated a private school for a few years, you can apply for subsidy. You will receive roughly the amount per pupil that would otherwise be needed to fund the pupil's place at a public school. So this is more or less a zero-sum game for the state. All schools have to obey public school regulations (e.g., on curriculum and e…

I'm talking about hospitals and other officially church operated institutions: http://humanist.de/kirchensteuer/krankenhaeuser.html Hospitals and elderly homes are NOT primarily financed by the insurance of their patients. Public hospitals are funded by the government. Church operated hospitals are funded by the government AND the church, with churches often paying the smaller share. Additionally churches themselves…

I agree with your last point: church institutions are privileged in that some jobs in these institutions are exempt from some labor laws.

Since a recent court decision, this exemption is now quite limited (https://efarbeitsrecht.net/kirchliche-arbeitgeber/, unfortunately only in German).

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