University of Phoenix Enrollment Down by 42% • Hacker News Board

Re: University of Phoenix Enrollment Down by 42%

#31

Post by danielford » Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 4:47 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #15

Disclosure: My spouse teaches online for Phoenix. Phoenix's success and also a source of criticism is due to its liberal admissions policy and therefore it accepts students who might not be considered fully prepared for college level courses by other institutions. People can legitimately come down on both sides of such an enrollment policy, on the one hand, it can be argued that it deprecates the value of a college d…

Open admissions and small courses can be found at a community college for a fraction of the price for-profits charge. My main concern about for-profits are reports from their adjuncts that they've been pressured to pass students who perform poorly. A lot of their students also lack basic reading and math skills because for-profits don't have the remediation requirements you would see at a community college.

I'm all for seeing what market forces can do to improve education. But I'm worried that a lot of these students are going into massive debt to get a degree that won't be valued in the marketplace, due to lack of academic standards.

Re: University of Phoenix Enrollment Down by 42%

#32

Post by arctangent » Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 4:52 PM UTC

michaelbuckbee wrote: post #4

There was a really interesting Frontline Documentary - College Inc - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/view/ that covered the University of Phoneix in depth.

I watched this last week and I would second your recommendation.

Some of the individuals represented in the documentary could have come straight out of the Enron documentary.

Re: University of Phoenix Enrollment Down by 42%

#33

Post by brudgers » Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 5:16 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #24

brudgers wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's also not unusual for bioscience Phd's from land grant universities, english majors from small liberal arts colleges, or recent Master of Architecture graduates from the Ivy League. If the measure of education is that it provides vocational opportunity, then all we can shut down all higher education except the nursing programs in the community colleges.

It would be nice to see some statistics, but I suspect that an english major from a small liberal arts college is actually significantly more valuable. Of course it isn't going to get you a job using the English major, but it qualifies you for the generic HR screen of "4-year college degree from a respectable institution", which opens up a tier of jobs not available with just a high-school diploma. The unemployment r…

To the extent to which a degree is used to signify socio-economic status (which I believe to be substantial and to which the higher earning potential correlates), then it would be surprising if Phoenix graduates are seen as less desirable than those from less accessible schools. Phoenix tuition, is not the $37,000 a year that the Rollins Colleges of the world charge, and that is what a significant part of what those degrees signify. [http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/...]

Re: University of Phoenix Enrollment Down by 42%

#34

Post by aonic » Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 5:16 PM UTC

MichaelSalib wrote: post #29

aonic wrote: post #10

What's a good & accredited online university for CS courses?

I've heard some good things about UIUC's online program [1]. My spouse took some graduate level electrical engineering classes at Columbia's online program [2] and had a mixed experience. Some of the classes were really good, but in some cases the adjunct profs weren't very dedicated to teaching; then again, failure to maintain quality control on professional instruction is a problem at lots of reputable schools. [1]…

Thanks! I found this as well, not CS, but close enough: http://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/BachelorinIST_CourseList.shtm...

Re: University of Phoenix Enrollment Down by 42%

#35

Post by brudgers » Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 5:20 PM UTC

danielford wrote: post #31

brudgers wrote: post #15

Disclosure: My spouse teaches online for Phoenix. Phoenix's success and also a source of criticism is due to its liberal admissions policy and therefore it accepts students who might not be considered fully prepared for college level courses by other institutions. People can legitimately come down on both sides of such an enrollment policy, on the one hand, it can be argued that it deprecates the value of a college d…

Open admissions and small courses can be found at a community college for a fraction of the price for-profits charge. My main concern about for-profits are reports from their adjuncts that they've been pressured to pass students who perform poorly. A lot of their students also lack basic reading and math skills because for-profits don't have the remediation requirements you would see at a community college. I'm all f…

>"My main concern about for-profits are reports from their adjuncts that they've been pressured to pass students who perform poorly."

That is not the experience related by my spouse, and I would suspect that there is less pressure at Phoenix than at some large and well known institutions. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/14/sports/ncaafootball/14aubu...

Re: University of Phoenix Enrollment Down by 42%

#36

Post by rokhayakebe » Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 5:24 PM UTC

A source told me there is a law that has been passed preventing sales people to earn a commission from consumers they enroll them into schools. That maybe another reason.

Re: University of Phoenix Enrollment Down by 42%

#37

Post by simplify » Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 6:10 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #17

brudgers wrote: post #15

Disclosure: My spouse teaches online for Phoenix. Phoenix's success and also a source of criticism is due to its liberal admissions policy and therefore it accepts students who might not be considered fully prepared for college level courses by other institutions. People can legitimately come down on both sides of such an enrollment policy, on the one hand, it can be argued that it deprecates the value of a college d…

Couldn't one say that poor performing students at UoP is a sign that the school's grading and student evaluation is fair (i.e. the system is working) as opposed to rampant grade inflation seen elsewhere?

I think this viewpoint can't be stressed enough. Evaluating schools based on what percentage of their students do well is a very slippery slope to encouraging schools to lower their standards to the lowest common denominator.

Re: University of Phoenix Enrollment Down by 42%

#38

Post by angstrom » Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 6:15 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #15

Disclosure: My spouse teaches online for Phoenix. Phoenix's success and also a source of criticism is due to its liberal admissions policy and therefore it accepts students who might not be considered fully prepared for college level courses by other institutions. People can legitimately come down on both sides of such an enrollment policy, on the one hand, it can be argued that it deprecates the value of a college d…

Has your spouse seen this video? If not please watch it. I would be curious if you could debunk/shed more light on some of the issues it raises: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/view/

My concern about for-profit education is that its interest is focused more on the investor and less on the student outcomes. Students are admitted fairly easily and loans from for-profit banks in addition to any federal funding create what looks like a ponzi scheme taking advantage of people's aspirations. Once the pool of gullible students are dried up the scheme busts and the tax payers are the ones holding the bag.

Re: University of Phoenix Enrollment Down by 42%

#39

Post by angstrom » Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 6:25 PM UTC

michaelbuckbee wrote: post #4

There was a really interesting Frontline Documentary - College Inc - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/view/ that covered the University of Phoneix in depth.

This was the first thing that came to mind when I saw this. For-profit colleges could be a viable venture if they were partly liable for the loans students must take to attend. That would align their profit motives with the success of students and investors.

Right now it's a pyramid scheme about to bust. Banks, and by virtue of lender of last resort, the government end up swallowing this debt.

Re: University of Phoenix Enrollment Down by 42%

#40

Post by michaelbuckbee » Sat, Jan 15, 2011, 6:46 PM UTC

angstrom wrote: post #39

michaelbuckbee wrote: post #4

There was a really interesting Frontline Documentary - College Inc - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/view/ that covered the University of Phoneix in depth.

This was the first thing that came to mind when I saw this. For-profit colleges could be a viable venture if they were partly liable for the loans students must take to attend. That would align their profit motives with the success of students and investors. Right now it's a pyramid scheme about to bust. Banks, and by virtue of lender of last resort, the government end up swallowing this debt.

I'm far from an expert in this area but one aspect of the situation that I hadn't realized was that federal student loans aren't dischargeable through bankruptcy?

Does that put the onus back on the students who borrowed so much money?