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Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

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Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#321

Post by GoblinSlayer »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #260
4bpp wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe he has alienated more women from FOSS than he has inspired people to contribute to it? Considering the frankly extremely low percentage of female contributors, it seems that he would have had to personally (considering that all of the creepy behaviours listed seem to be limited to his meatspace circles) alienate multiple women for every one woman who did wind up working on in free software, which seems…

> Do you believe he has alienated more women from FOSS than he has inspired people to contribute to it? If I save a hundred lives as a doctor and then murder one person, does the calculus go in my favor?

Mortality from smallpox vaccine was small, but not zero.

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#322

Post by Digit-Al »

GoblinSlayer wrote: post #277
colonwqbang wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you are thinking of copyleft software. "Free software" means the same thing as "open-source software". See for instance this GNU page where permissive licenses like the MIT license are also described as "free software licenses": https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html

It's up for interpretation. Toviozation clearly restricts freedom of modification.

Really though? When the inventor of the concept of "free software" and the founder of the Free Software Foundation says that free software is not the same as open source software I don't really think you can seriously declare that "it's up for interpretation".

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#323

Post by hdfbdtbcdg »

lostjohnny wrote: post #304
hdfbdtbcdg wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gavin McInnes is really a misogynist and founder of Vice. He has been fired. I don't much care for people like him but he is not part of the problem with Vice. > She's really building weapons for the US department of defense Can I get a link or reference for this? It is a big fact...

> He has been fired. I don't much care for people like him but he is not part of the problem with Vice. He left on his own, at the top of his career, while he was still admired as "the godfather of hipsterism" He turned from hipster god to far right extremist And that's more or less what happens to everyone thinking to be "edgy" and "modern" and "free" when they start to understand they have power over people's life.…

Wow.

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#324

Post by craigsmansion »

flatb wrote: post #316
craigsmansion wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If he’s defending That's a big "if" Stallman was reviled not for things he didn't do, but for thoughts he didn't think.

Stallman was reviled because he has been accused, by several independent parties, of, among other things: -Asking female coworkers to lay down topless on a mattress in his office. -Threatening a colleague to kill himself if he/she didn't go on a date with him. -Posting up signs in his workplace along the lines of "Knight for Justice (Also: Hot Ladies)".

> Asking female coworkers to lay down topless on a mattress in his office.

Even the initial accusation doesn't try to push the story that far:

"He literally used to have a mattress on the floor of his office. [..] (the mattress was also known to have shirtless people lounging on it…)"

Person has sleeping accommodation in place where he lives (odd thought it may be). Sometimes people use it as chair. No mentions of requests or toplessness.

> -Threatening a colleague to kill himself if he/she didn't go on a date with him.

Unsubstantiated: saying something like "I can't imagine life without you" can be interpreted just like that depending on a variety of circumstances. That was also decades ago.

> Posting up signs in his workplace along the lines of "Knight for Justice (Also: Hot Ladies)".

Really now? Incidentally also the only one of your accusations of which there is evidence instead of hearsay or urban legends. Furthermore, "a sign" not "signs".

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#325

Post by GoblinSlayer »

mav3rick wrote: post #105
4bpp wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think my leap from murder to war was greater than your leap from some gauche remarks during a talk in the '90s and a handful of emails lawyering about word choice that might have put some people off working in the speaker's discipline to murder. Other than that, what exactly is your point? At no point did I imply that rms's life history should be compared to the Allied intervention in Europe; I merely brought…

If any other person did this, especially someone from FAANG etc. you'll be out with your pitchforks. The double standard is so real.

I do want FAANG to threaten me that they will kill themselves if I don't go on a date with them.

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#326

Post by ghaff »

Avamander wrote: post #255
ghaff wrote: post #189

Interestingly, one of the latest contretemps on Twitter etc. Lis the desire by some for open source licenses that restrict usage by purpose or organization. For example, ICE, military, law enforcement, etc. A much longer discussion obviously but an example where user freedoms more or less are counter to developers being able to restrict what their software gets used for once it’s been released as open source.

To be fair, if free software can restrict it's redistribution in closed devices, why not in cases where the use restricts user freedoms one step more indirectly?

Also to be fair, that was a pretty controversial clause in GPLv3 and ended up getting largely de-fanged before the license was finalized. It’s not obvious to me that workable usage restrictions should automatically be off the table however.

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#327

Post by Smithalicious »

flatb wrote: post #320
Smithalicious wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it everybody steps up now, it means there was clearly a disconnect between his self image and what his environment thought about him. Oh, certainly. And I'd say the reason for that is > because of the importance of his figure people were more willing to keep their mouths shut and look the other way I don't necessarily blame people for not spekaing out if they were troubled by his behaviour, but this is really un…

> Decades worth of small issues that Stallman was mostly unaware of As a reminder, the "small issues" you mention include accusations, by several independent parties, of, among other things: -Asking female coworkers to lay down topless on a mattress in his office. -Threatening a colleague to kill himself if he/she didn't go on a date with him. -Posting up signs in his workplace along the lines of "Knight for Justice…

The second is unacceptable if it happened as told. I don't know what to think of the first point without context. The third point seems like an innocent joke to me, if slightly inappropriate.

I don't mean to defend him from any kind it accusation, but all of this is meaningless without full context and hearing the story from both sides.

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#328

Post by Smithalicious »

doubleunplussed wrote: post #307
atoav wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could also see it the other way round: because of the importance of his figure people were more willing to keep their mouths shut and look the other way. Once the tipping point is reached, they don’t see any reason to do that anymore. This is why medival monarchs had jesters to tell them what is really going on. The right thing to do of course is to speek truth to power openly and before everybody else does it, b…

Interestingly, in a world with strong norms against speech having career consequences, people would have been empowered to speak up earlier. The expectation that unpopular speech will have consequences for them makes them keep quiet until they are sure their views are popular.

Oh, certainly. The way it is now encourages both wielding controversy as a weapon as well as remaining silent to avoid a conflict (for their own sake, but also the other party).

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#329

Post by GoblinSlayer »

zapzupnz wrote: post #24
ariabuckles wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't just this incident. RMS alienated so many women from open source and free software over the last 30 years, and we've lost all of those potential contributions. He's been getting breaks for 30 years. That he has also done some very good things isn't a good argument for continuing to tolerate his harmful behaviour after he's been asked to fix it for literally decades, and hasn't.

It really does seem that he's being defended purely based on some cult of celebrity. HN would vilify any other group for doing the same thing for anybody else.

He's defended based on rational merit and sense of justice.

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#330

Post by tonyarkles »

grawprog wrote: post #135
prepend wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds really frustrating. Fortunately many countries now have open data legislation. For example, in the US, since 2013 by executive order (M-13-13) and this year (Evidencemaking in Policy/Open Data Act), federally funded projects must eventually release their data to the public or include a plan explaining why national security or privacy reasons prevent it. I think it’s getting better.

This was during the reign of Prime minister Stephen Harper. Most funding towards the environment was cut during that time and scientists in Canada silenced fairly heavily. It was when all this: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/canadian-scien... was happening.

Elsewhere in the thread I was half-way through typing up a comment asking whether this was during the Harper era, and then decided better of it. Glad to see I wasn't wrong. Horrifying the things that were happening with environmental science in that period. I mean, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to hear that it was still going on...
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