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My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

latimes.com

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Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#171

Post by smt88 »

darawk wrote: post #160
smt88 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume they were unqualified? We already know IBM failed to hire qualified black engineers because they were black. This may well have been cases of qualified people working around a corrupt system. The first black IBM engineer isn't going to want new black hires to be incompetent -- quite the opposite. He likely did his own screening.

> Why do you assume they were unqualified? Because the point of being given the answers is to meet qualifications that you don't actually possess.

In this case, there was racial discrimination, so they were unlikely to be hired even if they possessed the qualifications.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#172

Post by handlegoeshere »

goog-anon wrote: post #114
onetimeposter1 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By using racist hiring policies, OP is perpetuating the same "racist baggage" we have worked so hard to cast off.

I think poster was referring to the historical baggage of Asian immigrants. They do come with a lot of historical baggage, especially Brahmin Indians and their reverence to the caste system that allots them special privileges. They openly discriminate against other castes here in the US so not exactly a surprise that they also extend that courtesy to blacks. edit: op edited post so this response looks a little off.

Research shows that Indian immigrants discriminate against non-Indians.

https://www.brightworkresearch.com/enterprisesoftwarepolicy/...

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#173

Post by handlegoeshere »

bsanr wrote: post #26

Here's hoping that HN can buck Law 619 of the Internet: the comment section of all articles which mention data that shows social, economic, or institutional disparities which negatively effect black people will largely be concerned not with the implications of that information, but with questioning the authenticity or reliability of that information; or else, simply with thinly-veiled racism. I'll keep a running list…

I don't know why people's expectations of this place are so high. Remember this was the community that defended Damore, Stallman, Ito, and even some were speaking positively about Epstein.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#174

Post by bdamm »

kortilla wrote: post #95
bdamm wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Folks sometimes say two wrongs don't make a right, but when I look at this kind of thing and try to put myself in the shoes of a person that's experienced race-based bullying their entire life and are trying to edge up any way they can and against pretty much all odds, it looks less like a wrong and more like opportunism.

Yep, but it doesn’t help any arguments about a minority being as technically capable when they are literally cheating to get in.

I've met brilliant technical people from every race I've ever thought to recognize. I don't need any further argument to understand that there are brilliant individuals of all races.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#175

Post by cameronbrown »

handlegoeshere wrote: post #109
cameronbrown wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because someone is a different ethnicity doesn't mean we don't have a shared culture. Immigrants move to a country because they like the language/culture and want to be a part of it.

Immigrants move to a country to take advantage of the opportunities there and improve their standard of living. I have never met an immigrant that moved to a foreign country because they "liked the language/culture and want to be part of it".

Then maybe the incentives are wrong? If I ever move to another country, I'll pick the country based on the culture, not just on opportunity. It's too important not to think about.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#176

Post by GaryNumanVevo »

umvi wrote: post #148
Consultant32452 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just African Americans. In my experience Hispanics are just as non-existent in tech, and they are a larger percentage of the population than AAs.

My guess is that it is a cultural thing. Black/Hispanic parents don't push their kids toward tech careers. Similar to how black/hispanic parents (in America) don't push their kids to learn to swim. The reason their cultures are this way are complex and span generations. Indian parents, on the other hand, aggressively push their kids into tech. Heck, a lot of my Indian co-workers don't even like programming but their…

The stereotype that African American's can't swim isn't a failing on the parent's part. They were actively banned from public swimming pools, especially in the southern US. If your parents didn't grow up swimming, they're less likely to take you. Even today Black people in the south face discrimination at public / private pools.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#177

Post by umvi »

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #176
umvi wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is that it is a cultural thing. Black/Hispanic parents don't push their kids toward tech careers. Similar to how black/hispanic parents (in America) don't push their kids to learn to swim. The reason their cultures are this way are complex and span generations. Indian parents, on the other hand, aggressively push their kids into tech. Heck, a lot of my Indian co-workers don't even like programming but their…

The stereotype that African American's can't swim isn't a failing on the parent's part. They were actively banned from public swimming pools, especially in the southern US. If your parents didn't grow up swimming, they're less likely to take you. Even today Black people in the south face discrimination at public / private pools.

It's not so much a stereotype as it is a statistical reality. And I never said it was a personal failing, I alluded that the reasons they don't push their kids to swim are complex.

> If your parents didn't grow up swimming, they're less likely to take you.

Furthermore, if your parents can't swim, they may harbor fear of the water or drowning and seek to "protect" their children by actively avoiding pools or swim lessons, and thus the cycle will continue for many generations.

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#178

Post by darawk »

smt88 wrote: post #171
darawk wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you assume they were unqualified? Because the point of being given the answers is to meet qualifications that you don't actually possess.

In this case, there was racial discrimination, so they were unlikely to be hired even if they possessed the qualifications.

So what was the point of giving them the answers, then?

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#179

Post by setr »

cameronbrown wrote: post #175
handlegoeshere wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigrants move to a country to take advantage of the opportunities there and improve their standard of living. I have never met an immigrant that moved to a foreign country because they "liked the language/culture and want to be part of it".

Then maybe the incentives are wrong? If I ever move to another country, I'll pick the country based on the culture, not just on opportunity. It's too important not to think about.

depends on the (source:target) pair. People immigrating from India->US are coming from a vastly different background/goals/needs than those going US->India. Money probably dramatically beats out culture wants until you reach a certain point; those coming from a first-world country likely have lower monetary wants, and so culture has greater relative value.

Those coming from third-world to first-world are likely much more interested in money than culture, and I can't say for certain but my intuition is that the kinds of ethnic segregation (eg in NY/Chicago, where there's a whole array of little microtowns) that you see in the US are mostly generated by those poorer populations seeking wealth, not cultural value.

I imagine the equivalent American/European expat towns don't exist nearly as strongly/commonly in india/china, as the inverse exists in the US. (of course, you'd also expect less americans/europeans migrating to india/china, since the monetary difference isn't as strong).

Re: My father was IBM’s first black software engineer

#180

Post by smt88 »

darawk wrote: post #178
smt88 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, there was racial discrimination, so they were unlikely to be hired even if they possessed the qualifications.

So what was the point of giving them the answers, then?

I can't tell if you're being sincere or not, but I'll assume the best and respond sincerely.

Let's say you have two candidates, one white and one black. In IBM's case, it was more likely they had hundreds of white candidates and a handful of black candidates.

Now assume your hiring managers or practices are racist, which we know IBM's were (as were most companies' at that point, when it would still be 20 years before racial discrimination became illegal).

Finally, assume that the average scores of the black and white engineers are similar. It shouldn't really matter, because (as we've seen from LSAT scores, Google's HR, and other sources) no test has been developed that's a good measure of future productivity.

In this situation, you're never going to hire the black engineer. Even if you yourself aren't racist, you know you likely have colleagues who are. You see hiring the black engineer as risky.

If the black engineer instead has excellent test scores, you as a non-racist hiring manager get to cover your ass.

Does that make sense? Coaching on tests was a way of counteracting the racism. It had no bearing on whether the candidates were less qualified in this case.

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