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Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

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Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#21

Post by simonh »

paganel wrote: post #18
prepend wrote: post #5

I think it has something with redemption and new identities. I think societies that allow reboots lead to greater risk taking. Also capital and risk distribution. I visited Amsterdam and was interested in their history and how it took off after the invention of the corporation. Corporations can end and the knowledge from them can go into a new venture (redemption). They can also raise capital through distributed owne…

> I visited Amsterdam and was interested in their history and how it took off after the invention of the corporation. I wonder if anyone has written a history of the Dutch economy that can be also accessible to non-Dutch readers (i.e. translated to either English or French or Spanish). From a very outside view (i.e. mine) the Dutch used to be a very entrepreneurial society/people in the 1600s going into the 1700s, bu…

>but it seems that by the 1800s that spark had gone

I'd say the spark is doing just fine, but it ignited a blaze that swept much of the rest of Europe, and the New World. The innovations that Holland rode to success just aren't uniquely Dutch anymore, so now they're back to competing on an even playing field.

The same happened to England after the industrial revolution. Once the new techniques spread to Germany, the US and elsewhere their special utility to the UK wasn't so special anymore.

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#22

Post by dr_dshiv »

paganel wrote: post #18
prepend wrote: post #5

I think it has something with redemption and new identities. I think societies that allow reboots lead to greater risk taking. Also capital and risk distribution. I visited Amsterdam and was interested in their history and how it took off after the invention of the corporation. Corporations can end and the knowledge from them can go into a new venture (redemption). They can also raise capital through distributed owne…

> I visited Amsterdam and was interested in their history and how it took off after the invention of the corporation. I wonder if anyone has written a history of the Dutch economy that can be also accessible to non-Dutch readers (i.e. translated to either English or French or Spanish). From a very outside view (i.e. mine) the Dutch used to be a very entrepreneurial society/people in the 1600s going into the 1700s, bu…

As an American transplant to Amsterdam, here's my take:

The Dutch have embedded innovation/entrepreneurship so deeply into their society, it looks very different from American-style innovation. There are so many little innovative things here that startups would never get to. It is continuous, but not relentless -- as in, it occurs within the paradigm of working hours. Further, it tends to reflect the systemic intelligence of organizations, at a large and small scale.

Example Domains:

Transportation (all aspects), payment (online and off), festivals (incredibly innovative!), road construction, garbage pickup (yes! It's so futuristic!), child care & education, psychology, medicine...

In any of these areas, I can readily think of smart innovations that would impress Americans. The innovations are not of the "Uber for X", digital startup-based type. So, seeing the lack of Dutch statups in VC portfolios might suggest a less innovative culture. Here, entrepreneurship often occurs within the context of existing systems and organizations. It's a different, complementary way to think about things -- I rather like it.

Also, there are only 17 million people in the Netherlands. It's a much smaller market and startups that successfully capture this market don't necessarily transfer to external markets.

Further, when things are working really well, there isn't always a need for disruption... Nevertheless, things in the Netherlands never seem "done". Sure, there is great transportation, healthcare and education -- but that's because they are always ripping it up and building the future of it. Sometimes in the States, things can seem like we are just trying to keep the status quo from falling apart too badly.

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#23

Post by repolfx »

paganel wrote: post #18
prepend wrote: post #5

I think it has something with redemption and new identities. I think societies that allow reboots lead to greater risk taking. Also capital and risk distribution. I visited Amsterdam and was interested in their history and how it took off after the invention of the corporation. Corporations can end and the knowledge from them can go into a new venture (redemption). They can also raise capital through distributed owne…

> I visited Amsterdam and was interested in their history and how it took off after the invention of the corporation. I wonder if anyone has written a history of the Dutch economy that can be also accessible to non-Dutch readers (i.e. translated to either English or French or Spanish). From a very outside view (i.e. mine) the Dutch used to be a very entrepreneurial society/people in the 1600s going into the 1700s, bu…

Watch out for a scaling fallacy.

If the Dutch are just as entrepreneurial as Americans, then there will be way more successful Americans and American companies because the USA is so much bigger. Ditto for China. You'd really need to calculate "successful entrepreneur per 100,000 people" or something like that.

Also, selection bias. You're on a tech website. Switching to Denmark for a second, the Danes are incredibly ahead and successful in the wind power industry. How many people think of Denmark as a tech centre? Probably not many. We focus on software and there, one or two regions of America have done extremely well so we give it more attention.

That said, I do believe Europe and the EU in particular is discouraging innovation and entrepreneurialism at a pretty staggering rate. The Vestager rulings send a loud message that the EU considers hurting competitors to be anti-competitive behaviour (vs harm to consumers). That's a pretty big disincentive to work hard to get big.

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#24

Post by ido »

kayaeb wrote: post #14

There's a good book on this called "Why Nations Fail," [1] they posit that extractive economic policies (corrupted governments) essentially de-incentivize entrepreneurial businesses, while inclusive policies cause them to thrive. They use this argument to counter "Guns, Germs, and Steel" [2] to explain dramatic economic differences across country borders in similar environments. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/sho…

Interesting!

Anecdotally I'm an Israeli who moved to Europe (first Austria then Germany) and at least from my layman's perspective both of these countries seem both a lot less entrepreneurial than Israel and a lot less corrupt...

So I wonder if something unusual is going on or if one or more of my perceptions are wrong.

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#25

Post by barry-cotter »

filleduchaos wrote: post #20

This is a topic that's particularly interesting to me because there's an ethnic group in my country - the Igbo - that are so pervasively, aggressively[0] entrepreneurial that it's become a meme. I can't really think of another culture that has business woven as tightly into its very bones - I haven't read the entire paper yet, but I'm curious to see if it mentions them at all. [0] In a good way. Several people have n…

The Igbo are an example of a merchant minority, like both Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews, Armenians, Parsis and the Chinese in Southeast Asia, Lebanese in West Africa, Latin America and elsewhere and Yankees in the US South. There’s always hostility to merchant minorities from the majority population but the degree of difference modulates the hostility. No Yankee enclave was ever burned in a pogrom in the South whereas Jews everywhere in the Old World, various Christians in the Ottoman Empire and the Chinese in SE Asia all dealt with those regularly enough. The Igbo tried to secede from Nigeria after independence and it was an utter bloodbath.

We know this is at least partly cultural because genetically Turks in Turkey are over 90% Greek or Armenian with some additional Balkan and Caucasus contribution and after mutual ethnic cleansing rid Turkey of Christians and the rest of the Balkans of Muslims Turks eventually filled those socioeconomic niches. Until Erdogan it looked like Turney would be richer than Greece pretty soon.

Any Chua wrote a great book on merchant minorites, World On Fire.

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#26

Post by armada651 »

ido wrote: post #24
kayaeb wrote: post #14

There's a good book on this called "Why Nations Fail," [1] they posit that extractive economic policies (corrupted governments) essentially de-incentivize entrepreneurial businesses, while inclusive policies cause them to thrive. They use this argument to counter "Guns, Germs, and Steel" [2] to explain dramatic economic differences across country borders in similar environments. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/sho…

Interesting! Anecdotally I'm an Israeli who moved to Europe (first Austria then Germany) and at least from my layman's perspective both of these countries seem both a lot less entrepreneurial than Israel and a lot less corrupt... So I wonder if something unusual is going on or if one or more of my perceptions are wrong.

I think your perception that Germany is a lot less entrepreneurial is incorrect.

It's probably due to the fact Germany focuses a lot more on industry technology rather than consumer-facing tech.

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#27

Post by mcv »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #22
paganel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I visited Amsterdam and was interested in their history and how it took off after the invention of the corporation. I wonder if anyone has written a history of the Dutch economy that can be also accessible to non-Dutch readers (i.e. translated to either English or French or Spanish). From a very outside view (i.e. mine) the Dutch used to be a very entrepreneurial society/people in the 1600s going into the 1700s, bu…

As an American transplant to Amsterdam, here's my take: The Dutch have embedded innovation/entrepreneurship so deeply into their society, it looks very different from American-style innovation. There are so many little innovative things here that startups would never get to. It is continuous, but not relentless -- as in, it occurs within the paradigm of working hours. Further, it tends to reflect the systemic intelli…

> "garbage pickup (yes! It's so futuristic!)"

Is our garbage pickup futuristic? It's certainly efficient and practical (which are probably the most important and most typically Dutch values), but there's nothing about underground containers that's out of reach for other countries.

I think much of our innovation and efficiency is actually in government organisations, from garbage pickup to our efficient and well-maintained infrastructure (you really notice the road quality drop when you cross the border with Belgium or Germany), to our 'polder model': talks between government, employers and labour unions to decide on employment standards that everybody can agree to so we won't have any strikes.

It's true that we don't have the kind of startup culture that California has, despite attempts from the government. I'm not sure why, but then again, even in the 17th century, our big innovation was the invention of the multinational, globe-spanning corporation, not the small startup. And a big part of the innovation there was not so much the risk taken, but the way those risks were mitigated: financial products that spread the risk around. Many ships at the time were funded were funded through a system of life insurance.

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#28

Post by raverbashing »

repolfx wrote: post #23
paganel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I visited Amsterdam and was interested in their history and how it took off after the invention of the corporation. I wonder if anyone has written a history of the Dutch economy that can be also accessible to non-Dutch readers (i.e. translated to either English or French or Spanish). From a very outside view (i.e. mine) the Dutch used to be a very entrepreneurial society/people in the 1600s going into the 1700s, bu…

Watch out for a scaling fallacy. If the Dutch are just as entrepreneurial as Americans, then there will be way more successful Americans and American companies because the USA is so much bigger. Ditto for China. You'd really need to calculate "successful entrepreneur per 100,000 people" or something like that. Also, selection bias. You're on a tech website. Switching to Denmark for a second, the Danes are incredibly…

> considers hurting competitors to be anti-competitive behaviour (vs harm to consumers)

Read up on SEC decisions (including the AMD vs Intel one) and you'll see similar lines of thought

Because in the end hurting competition is hurting consumers. Like in MS actions against BeOS

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#29

Post by short_sells_poo »

armada651 wrote: post #26
ido wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting! Anecdotally I'm an Israeli who moved to Europe (first Austria then Germany) and at least from my layman's perspective both of these countries seem both a lot less entrepreneurial than Israel and a lot less corrupt... So I wonder if something unusual is going on or if one or more of my perceptions are wrong.

I think your perception that Germany is a lot less entrepreneurial is incorrect. It's probably due to the fact Germany focuses a lot more on industry technology rather than consumer-facing tech.

Personal anecdote time (please correct me if I got it wrong): go to almost any backwater German village and there'll be small/mid sized industry on the outskirts. From semi-high tech (e.g. manufacturing precision instruments) to "simpler" stuff like carpentry shops or metalworkers. In Germany, the small-mid sized business that actually builds stuff (as opposed to just services) is still pretty big. Sure, most of it is invisible on the international scale, but it's there and underpins an economy of specialists.

Driving through similar places in France the difference was striking. There didn't seem to be any of this decentralized economy. Again, I don't mean to draw conclusions, just stating my very limited observation.

Re: Why Are Some Societies More Entrepreneurial than Others?

#30

Post by chewxy »

jmkd wrote: post #17

Always worth zooming out and considering this study that relates average temperature to economic production, claiming 13C as a sweet spot https://www.nature.com/articles/nature15725

Is this going to be a new Montesquieu's climatoethnic justification for racism?
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