The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#141

Post by blunte » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 8:03 AM UTC

tomc1985 wrote: post #93

And this is why software sucks. We should focus on educating users, not stooping to their level GUIs of old had a specific design language. Like: File, Edit, Window, Help in the menubar -- always consistent, always in the same order, and always containing the same thing. Min/max/close buttons in the upper-right. And so on. If one knows the GUI language they can use almost any application for many solutions at a basic…

I have tried for years to educate users on basic tasks. A small percentage get it and use it; some basically get it and use it sometimes, forgetting other times; but some obviously pretend to watch the demonstration but actively refuse to think and commit to memory what they have just seen.

In some cases I have worked with the same people for years, guiding them (IT-wise), being friends with them, watching them do domain-specific things that require good mental abilities... but also watching them misuse or fail to use software despite my repeated efforts to train them.

If you want to reach the greatest audience and also reduce support time/cost, then we _should_ be catering to the most ignorant users. But as I say elsewhere, we should have two interfaces - one for normal/advanced users, and one for the really low performing users.

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#142

Post by wirrbel » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 8:07 AM UTC

xmprt wrote: post #121

tomc1985 wrote: post #93

And this is why software sucks. We should focus on educating users, not stooping to their level GUIs of old had a specific design language. Like: File, Edit, Window, Help in the menubar -- always consistent, always in the same order, and always containing the same thing. Min/max/close buttons in the upper-right. And so on. If one knows the GUI language they can use almost any application for many solutions at a basic…

The solution isn't to put things in preference windows either because even smart users will find that cumbersome. There's an interesting pair of videos (if you have some time) that goes over the UI of two competing music scoring software and why one is bad and the other good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKx1wnXClcI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hZxo96x48A

interesting, of course partially subjective.

I switched to lilypond for typesetting music, I guess it may not be the right option for those who actually compose (I mostly typeset classical pieces to add fingering and obtain a better quality than the cheaply layouted scores that are published today have, unfortunately guitar sheet music is way behind the standards that are set in classical piano music, and just retyping things in lilypond improves the quality by A LOT).

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#143

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 8:07 AM UTC

dusted wrote: post #135

Maybe it's time we stop catering to the users inabilities,and start making software interfaces that make sense, and expect the users to adapt if they wish to benefit. That was the expectation when I started using computers, and it was reasonable. It not only made me faster, better, stronger, it also meant that after passing a certain threshold, back then, I "got it", I didn't just get that one piece of software, I ha…

Strongly, 100% agreed. Especially that "catering to users inabilities" leads to dumbed down software sucking out oxygen from any problem space, leading to frustration and inefficiency for those users who have jobs to do in it. This is becoming more of a problem now that a lot of software is collaborative in nature, meaning you're stuck with whatever your team or company uses.

The way I see it, we suffer from a bad case of "worse is better" here. The amount of utility a piece of software provides can be to first order expressed as (Number of users * Average productivity * Average result of the results of using the software). Unfortunately, the revenue of a typical SaaS vendor is proportional only to the number of users. Dumbing down the interface and trimming features increases the number of users, but kills the right part of productivity and result utility distributions. In other words: more people doing less with worse tools.

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#144

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 8:09 AM UTC

zv wrote: post #140

dusted wrote: post #135

Maybe it's time we stop catering to the users inabilities,and start making software interfaces that make sense, and expect the users to adapt if they wish to benefit. That was the expectation when I started using computers, and it was reasonable. It not only made me faster, better, stronger, it also meant that after passing a certain threshold, back then, I "got it", I didn't just get that one piece of software, I ha…

So 2 tier applications?

In the old days it would just be 2 separate applications. Unfortunately, with so much work being done with SaaS that suck in collaborative features (that should ideally be handled on a different layer, outside of the software), it has to be one app, so I guess it should be done in 2 tiers to be useful.

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#145

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 8:14 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #79

ryandrake wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think having a jack stand and a 40x10x10cm toolbox squirreled away in a closet is that big of a hurdle. The tools required for all the examples I mentioned are extremely minimal, and the skills can be picked up by watching 10 minutes of YouTube.

Or I can, drop my car off on the way to work, take the shuttle to work, take Uber home, or bring my laptop with me and earn my living doing what I’ve done for 30 years and pay someone else to do it...

You are a rich person with money to burn and a job that offers you time liquidity. Most people have neither, which is why - and not because of their irrationality - arguments from opportunity cost don't work as well as one would expect.

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#146

Post by Already__Taken » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 8:16 AM UTC

blunte wrote: post #137

Some (many) users actively refuse to learn. There appears to be some psychological barrier that prevents them from even trying (perhaps similar to how some people panic at seeing any math beyond simple addition arithmetic). That's not to say the people are stupid - many of them are relative experts in some other domain, but yet when a computer interface is presented, they shut off their brains. While I find "wizard"…

Users don't read so I don't know how well this is going to pan out.

You're making the mistake thinking users are carefully operating their machines with a purpose. It's more like being surprised by a spider, clicking on anything that moves and if it starts bonging click shut down and try again later before you delete your life.

/12 years tech support and have a family.

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#147

Post by Sharparam » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 8:25 AM UTC

wildrhythms wrote: post #55

ryandrake wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, unpopular opinion these days, but car owners should really know how to do at least the bare minimum of basic car maintenance. I'm not talking about replacing the suspension or re-building the transmission, but things like changing oil, brake pads, and refilling washer fluid. The very basic basics. Not only does it save you money (who wants to have a mechanic do something for $200 that you can do for $30 + a litt…

I live in an apartment complex and park my car on the premises. I'm not allowed to change my oil on the property due to the landlord's fear of oil left on the parking surface, don't have anywhere to safely store tools or jacks to change a brake pad, and have no where to keep a half-used container of washer fluid outside of my living space (and I'd rather not keep it in my living space). That said, I know how to do al…

Here we have self-service maintenance/cleaning places for cars (often at gas stations). So if you don't have your own driveway/garage you can rent some space and have access to tools and a place to do maintenance.

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#148

Post by seer » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 8:33 AM UTC

dusted wrote: post #135

Maybe it's time we stop catering to the users inabilities,and start making software interfaces that make sense, and expect the users to adapt if they wish to benefit. That was the expectation when I started using computers, and it was reasonable. It not only made me faster, better, stronger, it also meant that after passing a certain threshold, back then, I "got it", I didn't just get that one piece of software, I ha…

I believe that the Rich Hickey’s mantra “simple is better than easy” applies very well to UIs.

A lot of the times UIs try to hide complexity by making it “easy” to do common tasks, but the underlying complexity is still there and rears its ugly head when you inevitably bump into an edge case, then you have to learn all that complexity (or as is often the case - rage quit).

A good example is Amazon software in general - from their shopping software to AWS console - all great if you’ve done it before and follow their guided path, but if you want to understand what will _actually_ happen or to do a specific edge case well then you better have a lot of nerves and patience.

Seen a person actually brought to tears by a shopping experience were she fell outside of a happy one click sale path and had to do some amendments, with some significant money on the line. She just felt powerless because suddenly an “easy” experience turned bad and now she had to understand _all_ the minutia around sellers, shipping and refund policies.

Not a pretty sight.

Had the underlying principles been a little less convoluted, and actually exposed, then a user could successfully navigate even some edge cases as then he would have at least some tools at his deposal.

Right now UIs tend to drift to “click and pray” category, where you identify what’s the several common scenarios and just cover those.

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#149

Post by eru » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 8:36 AM UTC

smileysteve wrote: post #88

eru wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Plus the point is that as cars became more ubiquitous, once esoteric skills became the norm, such as checking oil, filling up gas. At some point the baseline has to advance. Yes and no. On the one hand, as early cars become more common, more people had to deal with them. But on the other hand, cars became simpler to use over time. Tinkering with your car used to be a hobby of many people and a necessity. These days…

> (I don't even know whether you still have to manually check the level of oil? Don't they have sensors for that these days?) Most cars do have sensors for this, but they often fail, and even if they're working fine, tell you at a warning level, not at a full level. If you want to be a prepared driver you'd check your fluids regularly, but especially before long trips; The bonus is that the sensors can't tell you tha…

Interesting. Do you know why the sensors seem to have a binary output only, as opposed to checking for full level and dirt?

If we put our minds to it, these days we can often make sensors that are much better than humans for these kinds of applications.

Btw, you are talking about the former US president Obama? Seems a bit weird for him to care about car maintenance?

Re: The Distribution of Users’ Computer Skills: Worse Than You Think (2016)

#150

Post by agent008t » Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 8:41 AM UTC

_the_inflator wrote: post #134

tomc1985 wrote: post #93

And this is why software sucks. We should focus on educating users, not stooping to their level GUIs of old had a specific design language. Like: File, Edit, Window, Help in the menubar -- always consistent, always in the same order, and always containing the same thing. Min/max/close buttons in the upper-right. And so on. If one knows the GUI language they can use almost any application for many solutions at a basic…

> GUIs of old had a specific design language. Like: File, Edit, Window, Help in the menubar -- always consistent, always in the same order, and always containing the same thing. Min/max/close buttons in the upper-right. Mistake #1: Windows != GUI Apple has/had another design language. But Apple got it more right. Ironically Steve Jobs fulfilled Bill Gates mission (~a computer in household) with the iPhone. Mistake #2…

A Linux/Windows computer in a household is a device that allows both consuming and creating. Many, if not most of us got into creating using a computer just by having access to one and being curious.

An iPhone or an iPad is just a device for consumption. It completely hides, if not locks you out of, the underlying workings of the device, meaning that you learn nothing and you create nothing.