Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#261

Post by ericd » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 8:32 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #109

rayiner wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve spent 30 years in the US, many of those in red states, and I’ve heard the “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” canard way more often than I’ve heard anti-union rhetoric. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anti- (private sector) union rhetoric. Have you considered that maybe peoples’ reactions are based on bad experiences with unions? In particular, public sector unions. Even liberal areas are pretty anti-uni…

I heard anti-union rhetoric in college when people were wondering why it cost so much to set up A/V in a lecture hall. If you haven't heard any, I'm not sure whether to tell you that you've lived a sheltered life or you've so internalized the anti-union rhetoric (like your comment, right here! ) that it doesn't register when you hear it. Also, I'm very confused about your "liberal areas" comment. My impression as a r…

I used to regularly see one MTA employee hosing down the platform while 3-4 others watched. I always assumed that that was the result of a union negotiation, since it was pretty consistent, but could be wrong.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#262

Post by baby » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 8:35 PM UTC

H8crilA wrote: post #226

1-6 wrote: post #18

Good, if unions can make it less appealing for Google to hire less temp, vendors, and contractors, they might hire more full time employees. There's already a chasm forming between TVCs and FTEs. It's only going to grow bigger.

Just remember that if this happens and spreads out the insane software engineer salaries will be gone. Whoever makes a Silicon Valley salary is a benefactor of the current setup (which, I agree, is a little outrageous).

I think it is possible to be a benefactor and also understand that the disparity is insane.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#263

Post by anigbrowl » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 8:35 PM UTC

mokus wrote: post #160

anigbrowl wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is no different from centrists saying that every problem can be solved by splitting the difference. There's some times and things where one should expect a normal distribution, and other times and things where a binomial distribution shows up. Phase transitions and bifurcations show up all the time in natural systems, from mathematics to cell division and population ecology; I don't know why people think social…

This is a non-sequitur. The (apocryphal, IMO) “centrist” that’s saying everything is “between the two extremes” is not the same thing as someone saying “no, there’s actually more than 2 positions”. Your statistical example actually takes things the wrong direction. The person you are responding to is positing a distribution with more than two modes, not fewer, and by suggesting there are two your example actually is…

Sure...if you ignore that I also mentioned a normal distribution, which includes a variety of opinions with a rough clustering around the center. Why did you just ignore that?

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#264

Post by CryptoPunk » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 8:35 PM UTC

tokai wrote: post #257

rdiddly wrote: post #28

I always wonder about these ham-handed anti-union efforts. I assume they must work to some degree, or they wouldn't do it. But it seems like the sudden escalation of anti-union arguments would only end up working in favor of the union. Because it betrays how against it they are. It confirms that yes, this union will have an effect, and not in management's favor. Like "Clearly we're onto something here if they oppose…

Unions have been have been suppressed for over 150 years. At least they have stopped killing unionist.

Over the course of the early 20th century, unions got laws passed that violate the rights of employers, in order to give themselves enormous leverage over every capital-intensive work site where a large number of workers concentrate, and they attained a complete stranglehold over all major industries by the 1950s, and all the while, they've had the public at large convinced that they're the underdog.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#265

Post by anigbrowl » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 8:35 PM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #254

anigbrowl wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Donald J. Trump‏ @realDonaldTrump I’ll never get the support of Dues Crazy union leadership, those people who rip-off their membership with ridiculously high dues, medical and other expenses while being paid a fortune. But the members love Trump. They look at our record economy, tax & reg cuts, military etc. WIN! 7:32 AM - 29 Apr 2019 inb4 'Trump isn't a politician'.

"But the members love Trump" makes the criticism for more specific than being anti-union.

GMAFB

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#266

Post by t-writescode » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 8:35 PM UTC

H8crilA wrote: post #226

1-6 wrote: post #18

Good, if unions can make it less appealing for Google to hire less temp, vendors, and contractors, they might hire more full time employees. There's already a chasm forming between TVCs and FTEs. It's only going to grow bigger.

Just remember that if this happens and spreads out the insane software engineer salaries will be gone. Whoever makes a Silicon Valley salary is a benefactor of the current setup (which, I agree, is a little outrageous).

The people that will be most impacted by any sort of equalizing are the people who make like 120-250k per year. Not silly rich, but they have a house or two that they rent out, etc.

This is okay, because everyone is better off, despite the upper-middle-class being knocked down a peg or two.

Yes, they’ll have to sell their 2nd rental because it’s unsustainable.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#267

Post by Apocryphon » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 8:40 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #219

toomuchtodo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that unions only suck if you let them suck. The devil is in the implementation details, and the effort put forth by members.

> My point is that unions only suck if you let them suck. The devil is in the implementation details, and the effort put forth by members. But that's the problem. The employee faces the same asymmetry when dealing with the union as dealing with the employer -- a single individual has difficulty driving a change in organizational behavior. It's harder for an individual to fix a bad union than to leave the company for…

> It's harder for an individual to fix a bad union than to leave the company for one without that union

Is that accurate?

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#268

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 8:41 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #133

geofft wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard anti-union rhetoric in college when people were wondering why it cost so much to set up A/V in a lecture hall. If you haven't heard any, I'm not sure whether to tell you that you've lived a sheltered life or you've so internalized the anti-union rhetoric (like your comment, right here! ) that it doesn't register when you hear it. Also, I'm very confused about your "liberal areas" comment. My impression as a r…

The NYT, a fairly left-leaning paper in a left-leaning city, wrote about how the union is causing cost explosion building the second avenue subway. As to the funding—New York’s MTA has a significantly larger budget than London’s very similar system. London, meanwhile, covers 100% of its operating costs from fares, while New York covers just half.

[deleted]

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#269

Post by 1986 » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #232

xnyan wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's become clear", could you please follow up with some examples so that what you are saying become more clear?

It’s how politics in the US currently work. Liberals vote for “anything not conservative” and conservatives vote for “anything not liberal”. Most of the people I know that voted for Trump don’t even like him. It was just more important to keep Clinton out of office. Most of the people I know that voted for Clinton didn’t even like her, but she wasn’t Trump so she got the vote.

In a system dominated by two parties the only voting choice you have that is worth anything at all is the less-detested one

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#270

Post by hrktb » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 8:43 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #228

claudeganon wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has to be framed against the baseline of pervasive anti-union ideology in the US. When people have been inculcated all their lives with the idea that labor organizing is bad, they’re all just temporarily embarrassed corporate execs, it doesn’t take too much to push them back towards this baseline. Or at least enough to quash the union.

> they’re all just temporarily embarrassed corporate execs I've always found this condemnation odd given how often it's actually true. If you break down salaries by demographics, one of the biggest correlations with salary is age. Senior positions pay more than junior ones. It's an extremely common career path to start off in an entry level job and ultimately end up in management by the end of your career. So the rea…

How does it work for a 10 people team for instance ?

One of them will be a team leader at some point. A second one might follow and become a team leader while the firth one goes higher.

Will they go up one more level ? let’s say yes. That makes e of them climbing the ladder.

Will there be a fourth ? probably not. That leaves 6 people not going up, and only earning marginally more. That’s less than half will see significant change in their 10 yers next.