Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

m.pghcitypaper.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 448 posts

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#181

Post by stjohnswarts »

matchagaucho wrote: post #86

USW is completely the wrong union for representing Tech Workers. This will not turn out well for the Workers. The USW membership dues will start at $100+ per month and go to strike funds, Lawyers, Representatives, and Stewards who have their own self-interests in mind. This is basically just paying protection money to thugs. EDIT: For those downvoting, perhaps you'd care to kindly suggest a better union for this caus…

Running a union costs money, it's as simple as that. I often blow $100 bucks on a night out on the town. I would much rather pay that if I can get better hours, vacation, and negotiating power with the guys who just want to maximize quarterly profits at all social and moral costs.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#182

Post by trhway »

tyri_kai_psomi wrote: post #128
moocowtruck wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, USPS has an IT union and I can tell you first hand it is no good for employees, the things you mentioned happening absolutely happen and the place is just a disaster

We have a contract with the USPS IT department and let me tell you, it is absolutely awesome for their employees. They do about half the work we do in twice the amount of time, get paid more, have more holidays (2 weeks + every single federal holiday) and have pensions. Every worker there clocks in at 9, and clocks out at exactly 5, not a single minute past. If you want a meeting or them to get you something, it need…

> it is absolutely awesome for their employees. They do about half the work we do in twice the amount of time

how is that awesome? the productive output of the most productive time of their lives is 4 times less. It would be truly awesome of course if they productively worked only 25% of the time with your efficiency and spent the rest 75% on say education, new tech learning, skills improvement, side projects... Unfortunately, i suspect, their time is simply wasted 4 times less efficiently than yours - may be using less efficient tools, processes, nobody cares about anything in particular because there is no point in improvement, etc...

I myself work in a very similar environment, a non-FAANG BigCo, my effective productivity is order of magnitude less than it was at previous jobs in particular because we're moving with the speed of midday sleeping flies, and moving any faster would create huge impedance mismatch causing systemic structural stress painfully affecting everybody. Such slowdown isn't good even in the short term as it makes your mind into a mushy soup zen-like diffusing through your skull and merging with the swamp around.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#183

Post by chillydawg »

tyri_kai_psomi wrote: post #128
moocowtruck wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, USPS has an IT union and I can tell you first hand it is no good for employees, the things you mentioned happening absolutely happen and the place is just a disaster

We have a contract with the USPS IT department and let me tell you, it is absolutely awesome for their employees. They do about half the work we do in twice the amount of time, get paid more, have more holidays (2 weeks + every single federal holiday) and have pensions. Every worker there clocks in at 9, and clocks out at exactly 5, not a single minute past. If you want a meeting or them to get you something, it need…

Those conditions would actually be illegally poor in the UK for a full time employee. Minimum paid holiday is 22 + 8 days (8 are the public holidays) and everyone must have an employer matched contribution pension of at least 2% of gross salary. Hours are not regulated here but generally 8 per day.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#184

Post by matchagaucho »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #181
matchagaucho wrote: post #86

USW is completely the wrong union for representing Tech Workers. This will not turn out well for the Workers. The USW membership dues will start at $100+ per month and go to strike funds, Lawyers, Representatives, and Stewards who have their own self-interests in mind. This is basically just paying protection money to thugs. EDIT: For those downvoting, perhaps you'd care to kindly suggest a better union for this caus…

Running a union costs money, it's as simple as that. I often blow $100 bucks on a night out on the town. I would much rather pay that if I can get better hours, vacation, and negotiating power with the guys who just want to maximize quarterly profits at all social and moral costs.

The question is... will the United Steelworkers make the best use of that money?

Traditional Unions haven't evolved into the 21st century. They're still using signup sheets, phone trees, FTP, Fax machines, and Post-It notes to organize.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#185

Post by paulie_a »

mszcz wrote: post #138
tyri_kai_psomi wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a contract with the USPS IT department and let me tell you, it is absolutely awesome for their employees. They do about half the work we do in twice the amount of time, get paid more, have more holidays (2 weeks + every single federal holiday) and have pensions. Every worker there clocks in at 9, and clocks out at exactly 5, not a single minute past. If you want a meeting or them to get you something, it need…

I don't know if I'd like to work in a place like that. Wouldn't you get lazy after a couple of years? Doesn't this create incentives to deliberately work more slowly? After a couple of more years like that wouldn't you get used to not doing much and then get slaughtered when inevitable change came around? My friend referred to this kind of situation as "being in an ass" ;) Yeah, from time to time there's a smell but…

It enforces the 40 hours a week. That's the job you are paid for. Working 16 hours a day..7 days a week is not lazy. It's a recipe for burn out. Working hard for the 40 is what is expected and should be exactly that.

You pay me for 40 I'll give you 40 You want 80 then you pay me for 80

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#186

Post by spamizbad »

scarejunba wrote: post #164
Apocryphon wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn't you get lazy after a couple of years? Doesn't this create incentives to deliberately work more slowly? Maybe without unpaid overtime and burnout, developers will finally have the chance to contribute to open source and side projects that recruiters are always looking for.

I guess we can test that. How many USPS developers are open source mavens? EDIT: Did I misunderstand a joke or something? Doesn't seem like I said anything particularly controversial.

Several are unpaid Linux kernel contributors.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#187

Post by mattmanser »

yifanlu wrote: post #151
tyri_kai_psomi wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a contract with the USPS IT department and let me tell you, it is absolutely awesome for their employees. They do about half the work we do in twice the amount of time, get paid more, have more holidays (2 weeks + every single federal holiday) and have pensions. Every worker there clocks in at 9, and clocks out at exactly 5, not a single minute past. If you want a meeting or them to get you something, it need…

If everyone is happier, less stressed, and as a result less productive, then isn’t that a good trade off? Shouldn’t we all strive to work less hours if it means better mental health? That’s what I would wonder.

There's tons of evidence that for most people working more than 40 hours actually results in a fall in productivity (that's 9-5).

More hours are for show.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#188

Post by anigbrowl »

microcolonel wrote: post #162
anigbrowl wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Daryl Davis is a great guy, but you need to reflect on the fact that many KKK people took the initiative and reached out to him. It's not the job of people who are being victimized to make their attackers into better people, and framing it as an issue of effort v laziness is putting the onus firmly on the victims. It's great when this happens, but it's also extremely labor-intensive and it requires the person who has…

> It's not the job of people who are being victimized to make their attackers into better people, and framing it as an issue of effort v laziness is putting the onus firmly on the victims. Unfortunately it is the job of those sympathetic to a cause to support it, whether they are victimized or not. It's not "fair" or "right", it's just a reality that causes are advanced by those who care about them. Life is tragic th…

This is nonsense. You're arguing that being a punching bag is the only valid moral course.

In the case I mentioned the perpetrator was arrested by police, but you're waving aside the deaths as 'life is tragic, rest in peace.'

Police were called out the evening previous to the attack when the same guy was verbally abusing a black woman, Demetria Hester, on the same transit line, but they didn't arrest him and seemed to suggest to the woman that she had brought it on herself because she had fought back against his aggression and kicked him in the balls. It's subsequently emerged that Christian had threatened police, and despite all this they didn't do anything until after he had killed (reasonably comprehensive details below).

https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2019/09/13/alleged-max-kil...

Your whole position seems to be predicated on a kind of passive resistance, and if that gets people killed well that's just too bad. It seems like you're saying that anyone who actively resists or retaliates against aggression thereby loses all moral standing. That seems like a pro=aggressor position to me, since aggressors don't really care what other people think.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#189

Post by whiddershins »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #149
darawk wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It confirms that yes, this union will have an effect, and not in management's favor. Like "Clearly we're onto something here if they oppose it this much." I think it's important to note here that "bad for management" doesn't necessarily mean "good for employees". It is possible that unions are bad for both, by gumming up the negotiating process, and insulating low performing employees at the expense of high perform…

On average unions work better for the most people. People on the upper end will not stop contributing or trying, people on the lower end don't matter much anyway. It's the middle that provides most of the advancement.

Source?

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#190

Post by option »

arglebarnacle wrote: post #64
refurb wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. Often forming a union just replaces self-serving management with self-serving union leadership. Nothing like those union leaders making $300k per year!

Yeah, but unlike management, you can start an opposition caucus in your union, do organizing, win an election, and reform bad union leadership. We just have such low awareness in the US about what unions are and how they work that we take self-serving, collaborationist, timid union leadership as a fact instead of something we can and should urgently struggle to change.

my parents had to be part of the union (USSR, so no choice). Union leaders decide who goes on vacation, when and where (e.g. paid trips to beautiful Crimea). Also, of course, who is paid what amount. Of course, if you aren’t relative/friend of union leaders you get none of the perks. f@&&k that
Post reply on HN