Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#161

Post by rayiner » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 6:17 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #101

rayiner wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve spent 30 years in the US, many of those in red states, and I’ve heard the “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” canard way more often than I’ve heard anti-union rhetoric. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anti- (private sector) union rhetoric. Have you considered that maybe peoples’ reactions are based on bad experiences with unions? In particular, public sector unions. Even liberal areas are pretty anti-uni…

In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anti- (private sector) union rhetoric. I envy you such selective hearing. You could check out any discussion about the strike against General Motors that's taking place right now and find samplings of both pro- and anti-union rhetoric for comparison, but I wouldn't want you to put your exquisitely tuned eardrums at risk.

Given OP’s reference to anti-union ideology being “inculcated” I was thinking Of authoritative sources. When was the last time you heard an anti union screed from a politician? (Versus anti corporate screeds?)

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#162

Post by microcolonel » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 6:18 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #136

microcolonel wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having recently listened to and briefly met Daryl Davis, I know racists in large part can be reached, if we're not lazy about it. If they're your own parents, you have a huge advantage in terms of common ground.

Daryl Davis is a great guy, but you need to reflect on the fact that many KKK people took the initiative and reached out to him. It's not the job of people who are being victimized to make their attackers into better people, and framing it as an issue of effort v laziness is putting the onus firmly on the victims. It's great when this happens, but it's also extremely labor-intensive and it requires the person who has…

> It's not the job of people who are being victimized to make their attackers into better people, and framing it as an issue of effort v laziness is putting the onus firmly on the victims.

Unfortunately it is the job of those sympathetic to a cause to support it, whether they are victimized or not.

It's not "fair" or "right", it's just a reality that causes are advanced by those who care about them. Life is tragic that way.

> Back in 2017, three bystanders tried to intercede with a guy who was screaming racial abuse at two women on public transport, and he stabbed all three intercessors, killing two of them.

If he was ready to stab this woman, it is what it is. The lunatic who did the stabbing didn't get his way for free either. May they rest in peace.

Lunatics are brave and motivated, and heroes must be brave as well. It'd be nice if heroes could be effective and strong as well, but we don't get to choose when life calls upon us.

If that seminal Klansman were a lunatic, Daryl could have died that night. Daryl's a brave man, and that is unfortunately what is called for.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#163

Post by iscrewyou » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 6:20 PM UTC

whytaka wrote: post #110

I wonder to what extent the the thirst for a union could be quenched if the compensation of all members of a company were to be made public and always updated. If management wants to maintain direct negotiation with their staff, they must eliminate information asymmetry.

Look at government jobs for this example. Salaries and their limits are public record. The unions can keep them up to market rates.

Unionizing isn’t a thirst that needs to be quenched. It’s simply asking for fair compensation. That’s why the contracts are up after a certain time so everything can be negotiated again.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#164

Post by scarejunba » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 6:20 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #153

mszcz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if I'd like to work in a place like that. Wouldn't you get lazy after a couple of years? Doesn't this create incentives to deliberately work more slowly? After a couple of more years like that wouldn't you get used to not doing much and then get slaughtered when inevitable change came around? My friend referred to this kind of situation as "being in an ass" ;) Yeah, from time to time there's a smell but…

> Wouldn't you get lazy after a couple of years? Doesn't this create incentives to deliberately work more slowly? Maybe without unpaid overtime and burnout, developers will finally have the chance to contribute to open source and side projects that recruiters are always looking for.

I guess we can test that. How many USPS developers are open source mavens?

EDIT: Did I misunderstand a joke or something? Doesn't seem like I said anything particularly controversial.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#165

Post by scarejunba » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 6:23 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #147

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

subway doesn't have massive funding If I remember correctly, NYC Subway budget is about 10bn. London tube is about 2bn. It's not a money problem.

1. That doesn't seem right to me? http://web.mta.info/news/pdf/MTA-2019-Prelim-Budget-July-Fin... says the MTA budget is $16.6B, of which $8.7B is to NYCT (subway + bus + Staten Island Railroad). http://content.tfl.gov.uk/transport-for-london-budget-2018-1... says the TfL budget is £9.8B (about $12.2B), of which the Underground alone has a budget of £2.5B (about $3.1B), buses are almost as much, and then there's the…

Ever since The Most Expensive Mile of Subway Track in the World, the view of NYC's unions isn't really that positive. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyre...

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#166

Post by geofft » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 6:23 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #162

anigbrowl wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Daryl Davis is a great guy, but you need to reflect on the fact that many KKK people took the initiative and reached out to him. It's not the job of people who are being victimized to make their attackers into better people, and framing it as an issue of effort v laziness is putting the onus firmly on the victims. It's great when this happens, but it's also extremely labor-intensive and it requires the person who has…

> It's not the job of people who are being victimized to make their attackers into better people, and framing it as an issue of effort v laziness is putting the onus firmly on the victims. Unfortunately it is the job of those sympathetic to a cause to support it, whether they are victimized or not. It's not "fair" or "right", it's just a reality that causes are advanced by those who care about them. Life is tragic th…

But the daughter who wants to marry her boyfriend has no interest in the cause of getting her parents to change their minds - she has an interest in the cause of marrying her boyfriend. It is her job to find the most effective way to do that, which might mean cutting her racist parents out of her life. It is not her job to find the kindest way to do that and put off her marriage possibly indefinitely.

It's not fair or right either. Life is tragic that way. Sometimes your kids find no need to empathize with you.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#167

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 6:26 PM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #69

imglorp wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot corruption. In the US at least, unions can't seem to stay clean. Now, do the benefits to the workers in a dirty union outweigh the benefits to working for an abusive corporation? I have no idea.

I always find this an odd thing to say... as if corporations and states have less corruption...

> I always find this an odd thing to say... as if corporations and states have less corruption...

If there are two corrupt things, why add a third one to increase the misery?

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#168

Post by gwright » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 6:26 PM UTC

coredog64 wrote: post #122

guerrilla wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unions are democratic institutions Not necessarily, some are quite centralized. For example, LO in Sweden. The US has plenty of examples. Look at Harlan County for an extreme example.

One of the major differences between US unions and the rest of the world is a ~50 year old legal hangover related to racism. US unions used to be allowed to moderate their support for members (as in “Joe Bag-O-Donuts is a detriment to the company and should never have been hired”). Unfortunately, many unions used that discretionary capacity to refuse to support their African-American members. It went all the way to t…

I'm curious, which case are you referring to?

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#169

Post by geofft » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 6:27 PM UTC

kazen44 wrote: post #159

geofft wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opponents? My political opponents are actual, non-embarrassed millionaires and billionaires from families of millionaires and billionaires. My political allies are temporarily embarrassed millionaires, from the folks accepting below-market salaries to work at a potential unicorn to the folks buying literal lotto tickets at the corner store. A few of them are no longer temporarily embarrassed, having joined the right…

is this not just survivorship bias? What about the countless of people who did not make it into a successful startup, or all those people who bought lottery tickets without winning anything? becoming a millionaire is statistically highly unlikely, and why would such an unlikely event warrant anti-union sentiment?

Yeah, my point is that this isn't actually a rational way to think. That is what the "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" concept is about. For the vast majority of those people, it isn't temporary at all.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#170

Post by scarejunba » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 6:27 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #75

rapind wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to pinpoint where it originated but anti-union sentiment existed conversationally my entire life. The view being that union's are big inefficient bureaucracies of lazy people who get nothing done. It parallels the view of government I grew up with. Never really questioned where this view came from though, but my guess would be persistent long term marketing by interested parties. "Nudging" if you will. That…

It is interesting that to most "Made in Germany" is a sign of high quality and that most think Germans have the best work ethic in the world despite also having the strongest labor unions.

If anyone has read a critical piece of work on what constraints in Germany allowed unions and companies to co-evolve instead of adopt the adversarial position that characterizes the American interactions, please share.

There is something categorically different and I'm not sure how that came to be.

Edit: I'm rate limited for comments. Thank you, my dude, for the recommendation.