Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#131

Post by LeoPanthera » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:45 PM UTC

darawk wrote: post #112

rdiddly wrote: post #28

I always wonder about these ham-handed anti-union efforts. I assume they must work to some degree, or they wouldn't do it. But it seems like the sudden escalation of anti-union arguments would only end up working in favor of the union. Because it betrays how against it they are. It confirms that yes, this union will have an effect, and not in management's favor. Like "Clearly we're onto something here if they oppose…

> It confirms that yes, this union will have an effect, and not in management's favor. Like "Clearly we're onto something here if they oppose it this much." I think it's important to note here that "bad for management" doesn't necessarily mean "good for employees". It is possible that unions are bad for both, by gumming up the negotiating process, and insulating low performing employees at the expense of high perform…

> I think it's important to note here that "bad for management" doesn't necessarily mean "good for employees". It is possible that unions are bad for both

It's become clear in the past few years that a lot of people care less about winning than they do about their "enemies" losing. To them, it doesn't matter if you hurt yourself, as long as you hurt the people who disagree with you as well.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#132

Post by geofft » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:46 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #117

geofft wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe if they knew your daughter's boyfriend's parents were responsible, the truth would be easier to accept. This is hardly my experience with racists. It would be nice if it worked, but there's a huge gulf between "empathy" and "wishful thinking." (And my experience with racists is informed by gulf coast culture, not left coast culture.)

Having recently listened to and briefly met Daryl Davis, I know racists in large part can be reached, if we're not lazy about it. If they're your own parents, you have a huge advantage in terms of common ground.

There's the "racist" that leads the Ku Klux Klan, and the "racist" that has black coworkers they get along with great but just doesn't want their daughter dating a black man, it's just not how we do things, you know.

The Klansman, at least in the present day, knows that he's on the margins of society's beliefs. Like any other tiny political position, holding those beliefs is uncomfortable. Even among the second category of racists, the KKK is too far. The Klansman doesn't have friends. His subconscious has been hoping for a way to rationalize leaving; it's more than happy to listen to Daryl Davis. His conscious, of course, is embarrassed to have been wrong, but with time that will fade.

The second category of racists don't believe that they're racist. They believe (possibly correctly) that they're in the mainstream, that the label "racist" has been turned into a cudgel by a minority. If their own child is dating a black man, well, it's the child that's been brainwashed, the common ground is to convince their daughter to remember how the family works. (Why did no KKK member attempt to convince Daryl Davis to cease his crusade?) They're the ones who have friends and social groups who will support them. They're the ones who can easily find neighborhoods and churches and grocery stores free of black people - not that black people would be unwelcome, but clearly, it's unnatural for whites and blacks to interact. They have no subconscious desire to rationalize changing their minds; if anything, they have a subconscious desire to keep their feelings. (What will their friends say? What will their extend family say? What will their church say? Well, they won't say anything, but we all know what they'll think, right?)

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#133

Post by rayiner » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #109

rayiner wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve spent 30 years in the US, many of those in red states, and I’ve heard the “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” canard way more often than I’ve heard anti-union rhetoric. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anti- (private sector) union rhetoric. Have you considered that maybe peoples’ reactions are based on bad experiences with unions? In particular, public sector unions. Even liberal areas are pretty anti-uni…

I heard anti-union rhetoric in college when people were wondering why it cost so much to set up A/V in a lecture hall. If you haven't heard any, I'm not sure whether to tell you that you've lived a sheltered life or you've so internalized the anti-union rhetoric (like your comment, right here! ) that it doesn't register when you hear it. Also, I'm very confused about your "liberal areas" comment. My impression as a r…

The NYT, a fairly left-leaning paper in a left-leaning city, wrote about how the union is causing cost explosion building the second avenue subway. As to the funding—New York’s MTA has a significantly larger budget than London’s very similar system. London, meanwhile, covers 100% of its operating costs from fares, while New York covers just half.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#134

Post by dx87 » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:51 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #73

cgag wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What percentage of your life have you been being inculcated with the idea that your political opponents believe themselves to be temporarily embarrassed millionaires?

That's a Steinbeck quote[1]. It's surely being used, just as it was originally, as a fun way to describe the somewhat banal point that people in demographics relevant to organized labor often hold opinions about public policy that are contrary to their personal interest. It's not a literal statement about what's in a republican voter's head. That said: how many posters here consider themselves just One Great Idea awa…

That quote isn't being used how it was originally intended. It's referring to capitalists that fell on hard times, so they started supporting communism because they believed that they'd have everything they need. They're called "temporarily embarassed capitalists" because they only support communism if it benefits them and they don't have to work hard for it, not because they actually believe in it.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#135

Post by parineum » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #97

parineum wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're counting your opponents as politicians and allies as the people whom you personally associate with politically. If you were referring to only politicians, they're basically all millionaires.

That seems like a decent definition, if oversimplified. What's wrong with it? (And I think you'll find that I disproportionately support the non-millionare politicians.)

I know people personally on both the right and the left that aren't millionaires but (nearly) all of the public and influential political actors I know are at least millionaires, regardless of affiliation.

You're counting your opponents as the second group and your allies as the first group. Someone on your opposing side could make the _exact_ argument by reversing the groups. It's telling that your statement does nothing to show what your actual politics are.

The people I support politically are generally wealthy. I am also fairly confident that the ones who aren't probably will be if they are in politics long enough and not necessarily through corrupt means. Anyone of that stature can, at the very least, sell quite a few books on their name alone for instance. It goes hand in hand that influential people can more easily amass wealth.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#136

Post by anigbrowl » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #117

geofft wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe if they knew your daughter's boyfriend's parents were responsible, the truth would be easier to accept. This is hardly my experience with racists. It would be nice if it worked, but there's a huge gulf between "empathy" and "wishful thinking." (And my experience with racists is informed by gulf coast culture, not left coast culture.)

Having recently listened to and briefly met Daryl Davis, I know racists in large part can be reached, if we're not lazy about it. If they're your own parents, you have a huge advantage in terms of common ground.

Daryl Davis is a great guy, but you need to reflect on the fact that many KKK people took the initiative and reached out to him. It's not the job of people who are being victimized to make their attackers into better people, and framing it as an issue of effort v laziness is putting the onus firmly on the victims.

It's great when this happens, but it's also extremely labor-intensive and it requires the person who has been in the grip of a hateful ideology to be looking for a way out of it in the first place. If they're not, then things can go terribly wrong. Back in 2017, three bystanders tried to intercede with a guy who was screaming racial abuse at two women on public transport, and he stabbed all three intercessors, killing two of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Portland_train_attack

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#137

Post by jakelazaroff » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

parineum wrote: post #126

anigbrowl wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is no different from centrists saying that every problem can be solved by splitting the difference. There's some times and things where one should expect a normal distribution, and other times and things where a binomial distribution shows up. Phase transitions and bifurcations show up all the time in natural systems, from mathematics to cell division and population ecology; I don't know why people think social…

> This is no different from centrists saying that every problem can be solved by splitting the difference. You're right but because it's no different from someone saying their specific solution is the only way. In reality, there are a multitude of different opinions and it seems likely to me that more than one would be effective. > There's some times and things where one should expect a normal distribution, and other…

I think the point is that even if your actual position is not one of the two major ones, the pragmatic effect is that you end up supporting the one you claim to be against.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#138

Post by mszcz » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:56 PM UTC

tyri_kai_psomi wrote: post #128

moocowtruck wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, USPS has an IT union and I can tell you first hand it is no good for employees, the things you mentioned happening absolutely happen and the place is just a disaster

We have a contract with the USPS IT department and let me tell you, it is absolutely awesome for their employees. They do about half the work we do in twice the amount of time, get paid more, have more holidays (2 weeks + every single federal holiday) and have pensions. Every worker there clocks in at 9, and clocks out at exactly 5, not a single minute past. If you want a meeting or them to get you something, it need…

I don't know if I'd like to work in a place like that. Wouldn't you get lazy after a couple of years? Doesn't this create incentives to deliberately work more slowly?

After a couple of more years like that wouldn't you get used to not doing much and then get slaughtered when inevitable change came around?

My friend referred to this kind of situation as "being in an ass" ;) Yeah, from time to time there's a smell but it's always warm, comfy and soft ;P

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#139

Post by rtempaccount1 » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 6:00 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #133

geofft wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard anti-union rhetoric in college when people were wondering why it cost so much to set up A/V in a lecture hall. If you haven't heard any, I'm not sure whether to tell you that you've lived a sheltered life or you've so internalized the anti-union rhetoric (like your comment, right here! ) that it doesn't register when you hear it. Also, I'm very confused about your "liberal areas" comment. My impression as a r…

The NYT, a fairly left-leaning paper in a left-leaning city, wrote about how the union is causing cost explosion building the second avenue subway. As to the funding—New York’s MTA has a significantly larger budget than London’s very similar system. London, meanwhile, covers 100% of its operating costs from fares, while New York covers just half.

However London's underground system also has unions, so if the suggestion is that it's more efficient than New York, the implication is that it's unlikely to be the presence of a union causing the issues.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#140

Post by kingkawn » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 6:01 PM UTC

mszcz wrote: post #138

tyri_kai_psomi wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a contract with the USPS IT department and let me tell you, it is absolutely awesome for their employees. They do about half the work we do in twice the amount of time, get paid more, have more holidays (2 weeks + every single federal holiday) and have pensions. Every worker there clocks in at 9, and clocks out at exactly 5, not a single minute past. If you want a meeting or them to get you something, it need…

I don't know if I'd like to work in a place like that. Wouldn't you get lazy after a couple of years? Doesn't this create incentives to deliberately work more slowly? After a couple of more years like that wouldn't you get used to not doing much and then get slaughtered when inevitable change came around? My friend referred to this kind of situation as "being in an ass" ;) Yeah, from time to time there's a smell but…

This seems like a masochistic justification for being exploited by employers