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Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

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Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#111

Post by anigbrowl »

parineum wrote: post #89
revscat wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the toothless cry of the moderate liberal. “I think climate change is real, I just don’t support carbon taxes/the Green New Deal/anything else.” “I’m opposed to racism, I just don’t support reparations/police reform/my daughter and her black boyfriend meeting my parents.” “Sure, Politician X is corrupt, but I just can’t support impeachment. It’s just too soon .” “I support the labor movement, but just can’t a…

You present this as if there were only two positions one could hold on those topics which helps you paint anyone who has a different opinion as an indecisive buffoon.

This is no different from centrists saying that every problem can be solved by splitting the difference. There's some times and things where one should expect a normal distribution, and other times and things where a binomial distribution shows up.

Phase transitions and bifurcations show up all the time in natural systems, from mathematics to cell division and population ecology; I don't know why people think social structures would be immune from this.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#112

Post by darawk »

rdiddly wrote: post #28

I always wonder about these ham-handed anti-union efforts. I assume they must work to some degree, or they wouldn't do it. But it seems like the sudden escalation of anti-union arguments would only end up working in favor of the union. Because it betrays how against it they are. It confirms that yes, this union will have an effect, and not in management's favor. Like "Clearly we're onto something here if they oppose…

> It confirms that yes, this union will have an effect, and not in management's favor. Like "Clearly we're onto something here if they oppose it this much."

I think it's important to note here that "bad for management" doesn't necessarily mean "good for employees". It is possible that unions are bad for both, by gumming up the negotiating process, and insulating low performing employees at the expense of high performing employees. It may or may not be the case that this is what happens, but it does not follow from the fact that management opposes it, therefore it is good for employees.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#113

Post by geofft »

staticautomatic wrote: post #88
revscat wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the toothless cry of the moderate liberal. “I think climate change is real, I just don’t support carbon taxes/the Green New Deal/anything else.” “I’m opposed to racism, I just don’t support reparations/police reform/my daughter and her black boyfriend meeting my parents.” “Sure, Politician X is corrupt, but I just can’t support impeachment. It’s just too soon .” “I support the labor movement, but just can’t a…

Your assumptions about my personal politics are both incorrect and unwarranted.

You misread the comment. No one is saying that you agree with these other political positions, just that the political position you stated that you believe in makes equally little sense.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#114

Post by geofft »

microcolonel wrote: post #87
revscat wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the toothless cry of the moderate liberal. “I think climate change is real, I just don’t support carbon taxes/the Green New Deal/anything else.” “I’m opposed to racism, I just don’t support reparations/police reform/my daughter and her black boyfriend meeting my parents.” “Sure, Politician X is corrupt, but I just can’t support impeachment. It’s just too soon .” “I support the labor movement, but just can’t a…

> Ah yes, the toothless cry of the moderate liberal. Why should every position need teeth? Isn't it possible that we are largely doing things correctly enough, and we should focus on the exceptions to that? > "...I just don't support ... my parents meeting my daughter and her black boyfriend" [your caricature of a moderate liberal] What do you accomplish, if your parents really are so racist, by tactlessly exposing t…

> Maybe if they knew your daughter's boyfriend's parents were responsible, the truth would be easier to accept.

This is hardly my experience with racists. It would be nice if it worked, but there's a huge gulf between "empathy" and "wishful thinking."

(And my experience with racists is informed by gulf coast culture, not left coast culture.)

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#115

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #82
claudeganon wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has to be framed against the baseline of pervasive anti-union ideology in the US. When people have been inculcated all their lives with the idea that labor organizing is bad, they’re all just temporarily embarrassed corporate execs, it doesn’t take too much to push them back towards this baseline. Or at least enough to quash the union.

I’ve spent 30 years in the US, many of those in red states, and I’ve heard the “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” canard way more often than I’ve heard anti-union rhetoric. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anti- (private sector) union rhetoric. Have you considered that maybe peoples’ reactions are based on bad experiences with unions? In particular, public sector unions. Even liberal areas are pretty anti-uni…

[deleted]

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#116

Post by [deleted] »

oh_sigh wrote: post #91
claudeganon wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has to be framed against the baseline of pervasive anti-union ideology in the US. When people have been inculcated all their lives with the idea that labor organizing is bad, they’re all just temporarily embarrassed corporate execs, it doesn’t take too much to push them back towards this baseline. Or at least enough to quash the union.

I'm fine with unions if they are voluntary, but not if I'm forced to join, forced to strike, forced to pay dues even if I'm not involved, and forced to not seek employment at a place under strike through threats of violence.

[deleted]

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#117

Post by microcolonel »

geofft wrote: post #114
microcolonel wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ah yes, the toothless cry of the moderate liberal. Why should every position need teeth? Isn't it possible that we are largely doing things correctly enough, and we should focus on the exceptions to that? > "...I just don't support ... my parents meeting my daughter and her black boyfriend" [your caricature of a moderate liberal] What do you accomplish, if your parents really are so racist, by tactlessly exposing t…

> Maybe if they knew your daughter's boyfriend's parents were responsible, the truth would be easier to accept. This is hardly my experience with racists. It would be nice if it worked, but there's a huge gulf between "empathy" and "wishful thinking." (And my experience with racists is informed by gulf coast culture, not left coast culture.)

Having recently listened to and briefly met Daryl Davis, I know racists in large part can be reached, if we're not lazy about it.

If they're your own parents, you have a huge advantage in terms of common ground.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#118

Post by advisedwang »

tempsy wrote: post #53

Union tech is a very interesting startup idea. How do union organizers keep track of members, handle dues, plan, and communicate?

There are some out there, like nationbuilder.com (not union specific, but used by some)

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#119

Post by ben_jones »

revscat wrote: post #106
ben_jones wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent brought up a valid point, that organizing can be done without traditional union bureaucracy behind it - and perhaps suggesting sometimes this is a better approach. Then you responded with a completely different set of points attacking the parent poster on completely unrelated topics that you somehow equated to what the parent said. If we want positive change in our world we need respectful and rational dis…

[flagged]

The very country we (I’m assuming you’re American apologies if not) are sitting in was founded by a group of, admittedly rich old white men, coming together and convincing their oppositions to not just go to war against the greatest power of their time, but afterwards to come together as a single unified country through a large number of compromises.

You were quick to list the handful of dictators and “strongmen” you know off hand, but for every example you listed there is someone like Merkel, Obama, etc. on the other side.

It comes down to both our ideologies being wrong. No you can’t talk your way through everything and no you can’t fight your way through everything either. You have to wade through the muck in the middle, and because that muck isn’t sexy very few people are actually willing to do it.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#120

Post by ben_jones »

jahaja wrote: post #104
ben_jones wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent brought up a valid point, that organizing can be done without traditional union bureaucracy behind it - and perhaps suggesting sometimes this is a better approach. Then you responded with a completely different set of points attacking the parent poster on completely unrelated topics that you somehow equated to what the parent said. If we want positive change in our world we need respectful and rational dis…

> If we want positive change in our world we need respectful and rational discourse. Posts likes yours actively tear down discourse and makes worse the very problems you mention. This is a very ahistorical take. Tone policing and "moderation in discourse" has a strong connection to the will to maintain status quo. Radical discourse, direct action and even an unpleasant tone have however a rich history of change, both…

I agree and would point out that my comment does not contradict yours. Respectful and rational discourse doesn’t mean to sit idle while your talked over, rather it means you respect your enemies strengths and rationalize their weaknesses in order to take a position which best supports your cause.
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