Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#101

Post by anigbrowl » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:13 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #82

claudeganon wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has to be framed against the baseline of pervasive anti-union ideology in the US. When people have been inculcated all their lives with the idea that labor organizing is bad, they’re all just temporarily embarrassed corporate execs, it doesn’t take too much to push them back towards this baseline. Or at least enough to quash the union.

I’ve spent 30 years in the US, many of those in red states, and I’ve heard the “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” canard way more often than I’ve heard anti-union rhetoric. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anti- (private sector) union rhetoric. Have you considered that maybe peoples’ reactions are based on bad experiences with unions? In particular, public sector unions. Even liberal areas are pretty anti-uni…

In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anti- (private sector) union rhetoric.

I envy you such selective hearing. You could check out any discussion about the strike against General Motors that's taking place right now and find samplings of both pro- and anti-union rhetoric for comparison, but I wouldn't want you to put your exquisitely tuned eardrums at risk.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#102

Post by NeedMoreTea » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:13 PM UTC

rapind wrote: post #51

chrisseaton wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think their angle is that it’s not in anyone’s favour to unionise.

It's hard to pinpoint where it originated but anti-union sentiment existed conversationally my entire life. The view being that union's are big inefficient bureaucracies of lazy people who get nothing done. It parallels the view of government I grew up with. Never really questioned where this view came from though, but my guess would be persistent long term marketing by interested parties. "Nudging" if you will. That…

Live through the 1970s when unions became far too political, there was the oil crisis, out of control inflation (in part from abandonment of Bretton Woods. p.s. this is where moves to the Euro originated) and most economies suffering badly and you start to understand.

Strikes and disruption with unions using the tactics of previous decades - when they had fought for and won sorely needed rights, was no longer fit for purpose. They'd achieved the hard part now were fighting battles fewer and fewer outside the union cared for. When your refuse, electricity, heat or bank is disrupted for a lengthy period, while everyone is struggling, sympathy dwindles quickly. Resentment sets in, even for a fair and deserved pay rise, if it triggers yet another strike.

What does surprise me somewhat, is the complete lack of resurgence, or even much recovery, in US and UK after being effectively neutered during the Reagan/Thatcher years. Europe seemed to fair better, so they have kept more union presence than the Anglosphere. Yet it's pretty clear we need something sticking up for worker rights once again.

Coops are a completely different animal, and I've never encountered or heard of objection or resentment to those across my life. Capitalism, and most especially the modern neoliberal variant are indeed religions, with just as much dogma.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#103

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #82

claudeganon wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has to be framed against the baseline of pervasive anti-union ideology in the US. When people have been inculcated all their lives with the idea that labor organizing is bad, they’re all just temporarily embarrassed corporate execs, it doesn’t take too much to push them back towards this baseline. Or at least enough to quash the union.

I’ve spent 30 years in the US, many of those in red states, and I’ve heard the “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” canard way more often than I’ve heard anti-union rhetoric. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anti- (private sector) union rhetoric. Have you considered that maybe peoples’ reactions are based on bad experiences with unions? In particular, public sector unions. Even liberal areas are pretty anti-uni…

Unions for employees paid by taxpayers are not comparable to unions in non taxpayer funded organizations.

There’s a serious problem with incentives in the taxpayer funded space due to every union member voting in political elections, whereas the non union public is not involved, resulting in the politicians and unions being able to strike deals and no one really representing taxpayers.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#104

Post by jahaja » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

ben_jones wrote: post #85

revscat wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the toothless cry of the moderate liberal. “I think climate change is real, I just don’t support carbon taxes/the Green New Deal/anything else.” “I’m opposed to racism, I just don’t support reparations/police reform/my daughter and her black boyfriend meeting my parents.” “Sure, Politician X is corrupt, but I just can’t support impeachment. It’s just too soon .” “I support the labor movement, but just can’t a…

The parent brought up a valid point, that organizing can be done without traditional union bureaucracy behind it - and perhaps suggesting sometimes this is a better approach. Then you responded with a completely different set of points attacking the parent poster on completely unrelated topics that you somehow equated to what the parent said. If we want positive change in our world we need respectful and rational dis…

> If we want positive change in our world we need respectful and rational discourse. Posts likes yours actively tear down discourse and makes worse the very problems you mention.

This is a very ahistorical take. Tone policing and "moderation in discourse" has a strong connection to the will to maintain status quo. Radical discourse, direct action and even an unpleasant tone have however a rich history of change, both positive and negative.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#105

Post by pgrote » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

staticautomatic wrote: post #47

claudeganon wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has to be framed against the baseline of pervasive anti-union ideology in the US. When people have been inculcated all their lives with the idea that labor organizing is bad, they’re all just temporarily embarrassed corporate execs, it doesn’t take too much to push them back towards this baseline. Or at least enough to quash the union.

One can be pro-organizing but not pro-union.

>One can be pro-organizing but not pro-union.

Agree 100%.

Im the United States most local and state ballots have measures on them generated by petition drives. Get X number of registered voters to sign a petition and it is on the ballot.

I always signs these when the someone approaches me. I may not agree with the cause or be a proponent of the goal, but the group organizing should have the right to appear on the ballot and have citizens votes on it.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#106

Post by revscat » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

ben_jones wrote: post #85

revscat wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the toothless cry of the moderate liberal. “I think climate change is real, I just don’t support carbon taxes/the Green New Deal/anything else.” “I’m opposed to racism, I just don’t support reparations/police reform/my daughter and her black boyfriend meeting my parents.” “Sure, Politician X is corrupt, but I just can’t support impeachment. It’s just too soon .” “I support the labor movement, but just can’t a…

The parent brought up a valid point, that organizing can be done without traditional union bureaucracy behind it - and perhaps suggesting sometimes this is a better approach. Then you responded with a completely different set of points attacking the parent poster on completely unrelated topics that you somehow equated to what the parent said. If we want positive change in our world we need respectful and rational dis…

[flagged]

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#107

Post by Animats » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #82

claudeganon wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has to be framed against the baseline of pervasive anti-union ideology in the US. When people have been inculcated all their lives with the idea that labor organizing is bad, they’re all just temporarily embarrassed corporate execs, it doesn’t take too much to push them back towards this baseline. Or at least enough to quash the union.

I’ve spent 30 years in the US, many of those in red states, and I’ve heard the “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” canard way more often than I’ve heard anti-union rhetoric. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anti- (private sector) union rhetoric. Have you considered that maybe peoples’ reactions are based on bad experiences with unions? In particular, public sector unions. Even liberal areas are pretty anti-uni…

"I’ve spent 30 years in the US, many of those in red states, and I’ve heard the “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” canard way more often than I’ve heard anti-union rhetoric. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anti-(private sector) union rhetoric."

That's because union organizing campaigns are so rare. Usually, the organizers get fired. WalMart has closed entire stores that voted for a union.

Some anti-union resources for employers.[1][2][3] [3] advertises a "95% win rate".

[1] http://www.unionproof.com/ [2] https://lrionline.com/fighting-a-union-3/ [3] https://anh.com/

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#108

Post by JamisonM » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #35

JamisonM wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt the unionizing HCL workers would appreciate the remedy that some people here are proposing. People are saying to terminate the contract with HCL. What? What good would that do? If there are no consequences for union-busting then what? This is the same question for US companies that do overseas human rights compliance audits on their supply chains, it is true that if a supplier fails the people being mistreate…

I 100% guarantee you that if Google were to try to terminate the contract over this, people would be claiming that Google is anti-union and that that itself constituted a form of union-busting. The proper way to handle something like this would be to have penalties in the contract for illegal behavior on the part of the contracting company that reflects poorly on Google.

I 100% guarantee you don't know that this would be the case.

If the correct way is penalties then the correct course of action for the subcontractor would be to try to not get caught, there are penalties for union busting tactics already, and that is not stopping them.

It would be easy for google to do things to make it clear that they do not oppose unions:

Steve Gyrgo has worked with HCL for two years. He says he is not against unions as a whole, but he is worried that after forming a union, Google might want to work with another contracting firm.

Google can just put out a press release that says that union shops are welcome to be google subcontractors and that they as a company will have minimum compensation guidelines for subcontractors to show they are committed to people being fairly compensated for their work.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#109

Post by geofft » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:20 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #82

claudeganon wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has to be framed against the baseline of pervasive anti-union ideology in the US. When people have been inculcated all their lives with the idea that labor organizing is bad, they’re all just temporarily embarrassed corporate execs, it doesn’t take too much to push them back towards this baseline. Or at least enough to quash the union.

I’ve spent 30 years in the US, many of those in red states, and I’ve heard the “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” canard way more often than I’ve heard anti-union rhetoric. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anti- (private sector) union rhetoric. Have you considered that maybe peoples’ reactions are based on bad experiences with unions? In particular, public sector unions. Even liberal areas are pretty anti-uni…

I heard anti-union rhetoric in college when people were wondering why it cost so much to set up A/V in a lecture hall. If you haven't heard any, I'm not sure whether to tell you that you've lived a sheltered life or you've so internalized the anti-union rhetoric (like your comment, right here!) that it doesn't register when you hear it.

Also, I'm very confused about your "liberal areas" comment. My impression as a regular NYC subway rider is that the subway doesn't have massive funding, and what little funding it has is being spent poorly because of decisions by politicians, not because any union has asked for anything or is getting paid too much. I've heard a lot of anger at service cuts, at our governor, at the recent fare enforcement crackdown. I've heard zero anger about the salaries paid to unionized employees.

(I have, in fairness, heard the fairly inside-baseball complaint that the unions are pushing back against extending one-person operation to more train lines, for fears of more job cuts. I don't know anyone who thinks that's the biggest problem facing the subway, and I think the vast majority of the ridership, even the politically-active ridership with opinions about the merits of unions, has very little idea that this debate even exists.)

I do agree that people in liberal areas are unhappy about police unions. I think that's its own, special thing (among other things, in NYC the Second Amendment applies more to cops and retired cops than it does to civilians), and I don't get the sense that people are unhappy about teachers' unions in the same way.

Re: Anti-union activity is heating up ahead of Google contractor's vote to unionize

#110

Post by whytaka » Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

I wonder to what extent the the thirst for a union could be quenched if the compensation of all members of a company were to be made public and always updated.

If management wants to maintain direct negotiation with their staff, they must eliminate information asymmetry.