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Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

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71–80 of 97 posts

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#71
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd put a stronger argument: if everyone suddenly stopped doing stuff, the global economy would collapse, most people would starve to death, all our technology would rot and disappear in couple decades, and the few survivors would live with medieval-level technology on a thoroughly broken planet with no chance of regaining any advanced tools for thousands, or tens of thousands of years (as all dense energy sources ac…

It's a typical strawman. An average US consumer could easily forego half of what they buy (aside from groceries) and they'd still be fine. One would argue that this needs to happen for us to really make progress on reducing emissions. People blame "corporations" and "the rich", but it's like blaming a Mexican cartel for making drugs. They wouldn't make them if there weren't any buyers, and unlike with drugs, pointing…

I'm not talking about any kind of "victim shaming" here. Just pointing out the fundamental fact that thoroughly breaking economy is game over. Think for a moment why we want to fight climate change? It's not because of some deep love to the pile of space rock we happen to inhabit.

I was addressing the problem with ideas that people should "just stop doing things", or that we should be drastically reducing consumption, or halting economic growth. These things, "consumption" and "growth", aren't just luxury goods and high valuations of bullshit companies. It's peace and prosperity and a hot meal on the table. It's scientific progress and all the technologies needed to fix the mess we've made.

Since bring up blaming: sure, "an average US consumer could easily forego half of what they buy (aside from groceries) and they'd still be fine". But good luck making them do that. When dealing with climate change, we need to talk about what's possible, not about what would be possible if we were living in a fairy land where every human is a perfectly rational actor prioritizing good of the many over the good of the few, and coordination problems didn't exist.

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#72
post #4

>delivery vans from vehicle manufacturer Rivian is Rivian really a vehicle manufacturer? or a startup? I though you have to actually manufacture something to be called manufacturer.

They already have their Truck and SUV on display at the motor shows, 0-60 in 3 seconds, towing 7700 lbs, 700hp, 400 mile range. They said shipping in 2020. But I dont see any mention of vans on their website. Amazon is a financial backer of Rivian, so this makes sense.

They've been showing the truck for years. It's still vaporware. They've yet to build a single production vehicle.

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#73
> Bezos said the first electric delivery vans will be on the road by 2021

I strongly doubt this will happen. Their truck still isn't in production and they haven't even built a concept van yet. The chances of them producing vans in two years is very low.

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#75
post #6

I'm glad to see that there's deliberate movement in this direction. However, it's a little dismaying that the headline is implying that we can address climate change by Consuming More Stuff; that's how we got into this mess in the first place.

> implying that we can address climate change by Consuming More Stuff

We certainly can address climate change by consuming more stuff. We could spend $100 - $200 per ton of carbon to sequester all of our carbon emissions. And it wouldn't wreck our economy to do so, the costs are similar to that of the Apollo missions or the war in Iraq, not the level of commitment that WW2 was. It would approximately double the price of gas if we paid for it the rational way.

Sequestration doesn't have all the secondary benefits that reduction has, like improvements in air quality, but it could be done.

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#76
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely - imagine if there was a system where you had one delivery a week which consisted of all the items from all the shopping you'd done, instead of piecemeal deliveries throughout the week. The savings could be immense, but I can't imagine such a system being popular.

Amazon provides this already: https://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=17928921011

Sorry, I wasn't clear - I meant across all delivery services, not just Amazon.

It'd be interesting to see how many people actually use that option to consolidate a significant amount of items on Amazon, though.

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#77
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a typical strawman. An average US consumer could easily forego half of what they buy (aside from groceries) and they'd still be fine. One would argue that this needs to happen for us to really make progress on reducing emissions. People blame "corporations" and "the rich", but it's like blaming a Mexican cartel for making drugs. They wouldn't make them if there weren't any buyers, and unlike with drugs, pointing…

I'm not talking about any kind of "victim shaming" here. Just pointing out the fundamental fact that thoroughly breaking economy is game over. Think for a moment why we want to fight climate change? It's not because of some deep love to the pile of space rock we happen to inhabit. I was addressing the problem with ideas that people should "just stop doing things", or that we should be drastically reducing consumption…

I agree with you that standard of living is an important thing to maintain for things to actually gain any traction. But first world standard of living is carbon-heavy and fundamentally at odds with the environment. I get downvoted every time I point this out, but it's true. Avocadoes and fruits flown in from Mexico and Chile year round are problematic. Eating meat every day is problematic. Chinese shit that breaks in a month is problematic. New phone every year is problematic. 3000+ sqft house is problematic. "Traveling" is problematic. Luxury cars are problematic (even Tesla - according to an estimate by Swedish researchers, even before you start driving, your Tesla has already emitted up to 17.5 _metric tons_ of carbon dioxide - you need to drive a gas car for 8 years for it to emit this much).

So no, not "stop doing things", but not buying shit you don't really need would be a good start.

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#78
post #40
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some consumption is good, i.e. replacing and old appliance or a car with a more efficient one, or you can buy a video game on Steam rather than driving to a picnic. It is not always apparent what behaviour is the most energy-wasteful. For example airplanes emit tons of CO2, but if the same 300 people in a plane drove the same distance it could be much worse. Advanced economies have grown their GDPs, but have also red…

> For example airplanes emit tons of CO2, but if the same 300 people in a plane drove the same distance it could be much worse. Technically true, however airplanes provoke a rebound effect. By making travel so efficient and fast, it makes people travel more. If airplanes didn't exist all people would simply travel less, not drive more.

yes this (traveling and growth) is great. Also, amount of energy consumed historically correlates with quality of life.

Emissions are bad, but technology plus well thought-through policy has a potential to reduce them dramatically while both stimulating growth and energy consumption (nuclear + renewables and storage, electric cars, trains, etc.)

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#79
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unstated major premise: Buying electric vans is a step in the right direction in the first place. I'm thinking here of the lessons we've been learning recently about recycling: It would appear that we now need to come to terms with the possibility that recycling has done far more harm than good, by making it easier to justify excessive packaging waste while at the same time mostly only giving consumers the impression…

How would increasing the delivery time reduce the amount of gas it takes to get an item to my doorstep? Considering that the items ship from a warehouse about 15 miles from my house. I suppose that if an occasional item ships from across the country, then it would be less impactful to go by truck for 5 days, so if that is the case then any item that falls under that category could have a selection item on the checkou…

You're picking a rather particular example. Most people don't live within 15 miles of an Amazon distribution center. To pick my particular example for contrast, I'm also relatively close to an Amazon facility, but it's still over an hour away by car. And I imagine that, for most people who drive to get around, the nearest big box store is close to their route home from work.

There's also an unstated major premise that packages never come from any further away than the nearest Amazon distribution facility. I suspect that the truth is rather far from that. It at least isn't true for me - I kept an eye on my Prime orders from last year, and 1/3 - 1/2 of the things I ordered originated from a more distant Amazon warehouse, and getting it to me within 2 days involved burning a whole mess of jet fuel. I suspect that the GHG emissions from doing that end up being a massive portion of Amazon's overall pollution.

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#80
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some consumption is good, i.e. replacing and old appliance or a car with a more efficient one, or you can buy a video game on Steam rather than driving to a picnic. It is not always apparent what behaviour is the most energy-wasteful. For example airplanes emit tons of CO2, but if the same 300 people in a plane drove the same distance it could be much worse. Advanced economies have grown their GDPs, but have also red…

> Advanced economies have grown their GDPs, but have also reduced their emissions since about 1990. Isn't there an element of offloading their emissions to the 'less advanced' economies who make all of the new energy efficient nuggets?

Production of traded goods account for about 20% of GHG emissions. So, significant but not decisive.
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