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Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

cnbc.com

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Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#31

Post by noonespecial »

mumblemumble wrote: post #27
noonespecial wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I largely agree with you, decades on it seems that if the message factors down to "quick, everybody stop doing stuff" , it's hard to get political traction. Every step in the right direction is a good one. Perfect is the enemy of good.

Unstated major premise: Buying electric vans is a step in the right direction in the first place. I'm thinking here of the lessons we've been learning recently about recycling: It would appear that we now need to come to terms with the possibility that recycling has done far more harm than good, by making it easier to justify excessive packaging waste while at the same time mostly only giving consumers the impression…

It's possible. But even if that part is true, the large investment might spur faster growth in electrification which might then be good enough to outweigh that initial downside.

Unintended consequences are hard.

I'm just getting a little fatigued with the fearful "don't do anything, it might make it worse" coupled with the "stop all the everything" approach to environmentalism that seems to becoming ever more dominant. I just don't think that's going to work. Doing nothing won't help, and convincing people to do without doesn't work, so ?

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#32

Post by dimitar »

Arubis wrote: post #6

I'm glad to see that there's deliberate movement in this direction. However, it's a little dismaying that the headline is implying that we can address climate change by Consuming More Stuff; that's how we got into this mess in the first place.

Some consumption is good, i.e. replacing and old appliance or a car with a more efficient one, or you can buy a video game on Steam rather than driving to a picnic. It is not always apparent what behaviour is the most energy-wasteful. For example airplanes emit tons of CO2, but if the same 300 people in a plane drove the same distance it could be much worse.

Advanced economies have grown their GDPs, but have also reduced their emissions since about 1990.

The best policies to counter climate change like carbon taxes and schemes like cap and trade, which align people's incentives to emit less, but also don't damage the potential for growth and consumption as much.

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#33

Post by derekp7 »

mumblemumble wrote: post #27
noonespecial wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I largely agree with you, decades on it seems that if the message factors down to "quick, everybody stop doing stuff" , it's hard to get political traction. Every step in the right direction is a good one. Perfect is the enemy of good.

Unstated major premise: Buying electric vans is a step in the right direction in the first place. I'm thinking here of the lessons we've been learning recently about recycling: It would appear that we now need to come to terms with the possibility that recycling has done far more harm than good, by making it easier to justify excessive packaging waste while at the same time mostly only giving consumers the impression…

How would increasing the delivery time reduce the amount of gas it takes to get an item to my doorstep? Considering that the items ship from a warehouse about 15 miles from my house.

I suppose that if an occasional item ships from across the country, then it would be less impactful to go by truck for 5 days, so if that is the case then any item that falls under that category could have a selection item on the checkout screen that says "Delay shipment by 3 days, to save 3 lbs of greenhouse gasses". That may influence consumer behavior.

BTW, what is the greenhouse gas emissions difference between one delivery vehicle making the rounds, vs several hundred people each driving to a store to buy something?

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#34

Post by ttul »

Reedx wrote: post #28
Arubis wrote: post #6

I'm glad to see that there's deliberate movement in this direction. However, it's a little dismaying that the headline is implying that we can address climate change by Consuming More Stuff; that's how we got into this mess in the first place.

Well, they're not really buying more if they were going to add 100k vans to the fleet regardless? Assuming that's the case, it's just that those will be electric instead of ICE.

Also, they invested in Rivian, so by purchasing 100K vans, they’re guaranteeing revenue that will undoubtedly make Rivian more successful. And, no doubt, these electric vans will be cheaper to operate over the long term - no oil changes, no engine maintenance, etc.

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#36

Post by codingdave »

While I applaud any move towards decreasing negative impacts our our environment, I also encourage people to take advantage of Amazon's option to pick a delivery day and get all your stuff at once.

Even without that option, Amazon has some work to do on their route planning - I should never need 3 different deliveries from 3 different drivers on the same day, and that has occurred at my house.

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#37

Post by Symmetry »

derekp7 wrote: post #33
mumblemumble wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unstated major premise: Buying electric vans is a step in the right direction in the first place. I'm thinking here of the lessons we've been learning recently about recycling: It would appear that we now need to come to terms with the possibility that recycling has done far more harm than good, by making it easier to justify excessive packaging waste while at the same time mostly only giving consumers the impression…

How would increasing the delivery time reduce the amount of gas it takes to get an item to my doorstep? Considering that the items ship from a warehouse about 15 miles from my house. I suppose that if an occasional item ships from across the country, then it would be less impactful to go by truck for 5 days, so if that is the case then any item that falls under that category could have a selection item on the checkou…

Yes, this is all about speed/efficiency tradeoffs in long haul shipping between rail, highway, and flight. It's hard to say what fraction of Amazon orders aren't stored in delivery distance of your house but it's probably most of them.

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#38

Post by thinkcontext »

gambiting wrote: post #29
tristanstcyr wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does this cause more stuff to be consumed?

I think it's because the environmental cost of making a brand new electric van has a higher environmental cost than just driving the van you already have until it dies. Basically the world would be better off if people stopped buying new vehicles tomorrow completely, and just drove whatever they have, no matter how polluting it is - it's still better on the planet than making a new one. Of course our economy doesn't…

Well, you'd have to do the math on manufacturing emissions vs operating emissions, factoring in remaining lifetime of the ICE vans. If they are driven enough miles EVs would come out ahead over a certain period of time.

Also, they could just buy no more new ICE vans and replace them with EVs when they get to their normal end of life.

On top of all that, you'd also have to consider that the ICE vans would be sold into the market and not destroyed.

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#39

Post by 0x262d »

as expected, sections of the bourgeoisie are trying to barely solve CO2 pollution while continuing to maximize every other kind of resource consumption and concomitant non-CO2 pollution. or at least, pretend that they are trying to solve it. either way they will run into the concerted resistance of the bourgeoisie who depend on CO2 pollution as a business model, and who are extremely powerful.

the alternative to this shitshow is to democratically plan resource investment, and get away from the insanity of a road-and-small-vehicle-based city system (aka, establish socialism). I'm optimistic we'll get there after the youth watch rich people vacillate over climate change for a few more years :)

Re: Jeff Bezos climate change plan unveiled – buy 100k electric vans.

#40

Post by mrpopo »

dimitar wrote: post #32
Arubis wrote: post #6

I'm glad to see that there's deliberate movement in this direction. However, it's a little dismaying that the headline is implying that we can address climate change by Consuming More Stuff; that's how we got into this mess in the first place.

Some consumption is good, i.e. replacing and old appliance or a car with a more efficient one, or you can buy a video game on Steam rather than driving to a picnic. It is not always apparent what behaviour is the most energy-wasteful. For example airplanes emit tons of CO2, but if the same 300 people in a plane drove the same distance it could be much worse. Advanced economies have grown their GDPs, but have also red…

> For example airplanes emit tons of CO2, but if the same 300 people in a plane drove the same distance it could be much worse.

Technically true, however airplanes provoke a rebound effect. By making travel so efficient and fast, it makes people travel more. If airplanes didn't exist all people would simply travel less, not drive more.

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