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The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

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Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#171

Some other commenters in this thread have pointed out that nobody is forcing open source developers to work on the contributions that they make, and that is strictly speaking true. But in the culture of software development, there does seem to be an ambient message often repeated or hinted at, that it is good to "give back" to open source by contributing and that it is virtuous to do so. I now am starting to rethink…

But they are not working for free, they're doing this work during work hours. Individual volunteer maintainers this article is about are a minority. The majority of contributions to the open source projects that "the internet runs on" are from businesses that use the software and maintain or improve it.

I'm not talking about your small hobby project with a few dozen users - as good as it may be, the internet doesn't run on it. cURL is really an exception, not the rule.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#172
I don't really think it depends on people working for free. The salary of a single person working on curl could be absorbed by any of a dozen companies (or foundations, like the Linux Foundation or Apache) without blinking. And I don't think there's enough pieces of software like this to really change the math.

Yes, right now, there are places where work isn't getting funded, but if that lack of funding ever actually causes critical work to go undone and then get noticed, the money comes out. OpenSSL and Heartbleed showed us that.

People have noticed that the ways that this money gets disbursed tends to concentrate power away from the community and towards commercial interests (which is where I think a lot of the systemd hate really comes from, the fact that Red Hat is making those decisions and not the community), but the money seems to be there for infrastructure projects in the long run.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#173

Perhaps most egregious are companies who profiteer from open source, without contributing back. Amazon comes to mind.

Copyleft licenses were created for a reason. If you want companies to either contribute back or fuck off, use copyleft licenses.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#174
It's not like we don't like money. We just don't want to be told how to write the software and what we can do with it. Nobody's willing to pay us to do whatever we want. The only way for us to do whatever we want is to own the software, by making it independently, and releasing it as free/open source software.

Every free software project you can think of was already created by a company as a proprietary product, but was not released as free software/open source. We had to write them on our own time for no money, because companies have never wanted to pay to publish them [and also relinquish control of them].

I still work on projects all the time that would be fantastic to open source, but the company doesn't want to spend the time or money to put it through lawyers, clean up the code, release it, and maintain it for the community. (they are invariably unwilling to release control of their own project to the community at large)

Occasionally a technology group will get buy-in from an SVP that this is a competitive advantage, and a project actually becomes open source, but there's still tons of red tape, and it's still owned by the company. You have to fork it to be able to do anything of your own with it, and then nobody will use your fork.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#176

Some other commenters in this thread have pointed out that nobody is forcing open source developers to work on the contributions that they make, and that is strictly speaking true. But in the culture of software development, there does seem to be an ambient message often repeated or hinted at, that it is good to "give back" to open source by contributing and that it is virtuous to do so. I now am starting to rethink…

But they are not working for free, they're doing this work during work hours. Individual volunteer maintainers this article is about are a minority. The majority of contributions to the open source projects that "the internet runs on" are from businesses that use the software and maintain or improve it. I'm not talking about your small hobby project with a few dozen users - as good as it may be, the internet doesn't…

And openssl?

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#177

“The catastrophic Heartbleed bug of 2014, which compromised the security of hundreds of millions of sites, was caused by a problem in an open-source library called OpenSSL, which relied on a single full-time developer not making a mistake as they updated and changed that code, used by millions.” And the catastrophic Specter and Meltdown bugs show that private code doesn’t prevent this sort of thing either...

Yes, the OpenSSL dustup led to this amusing article: The Internet Is Being Protected By Two Guys Named Steve [1] ... the more serious point being, at the time, massive pieces of the internet owed their security to two unpaid/underpaid developers on two different continents.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7657571

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#178
It's very telling that the word copyleft hasn't appeared in this thread nor in the submitted article.

I use the AGPLv3 for most of my software and it's a feature that large corporations horrified of contributing back fear it. I'm not exploited, because I use a license that doesn't allow me to be exploited.

No one using a permissive license, which are pushed primarily by corporations that slander the GPL I think, has any right to complain about being exploited, in my opinion. Copyleft is good and copyleft software still gets paid support and other things; as many companies have found, it's also a good means to release Free Software that people will still pay for, in the form of license exceptions, even.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So since a corporation might get value from your work then nobody should get value from your work?

That's not a super charitable interpretation of what I said. I'm saying that for a lot of open source software, virtually 100% of the beneficiaries are corporations, so we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking we're doing god's work here, and my second point is that people probably overestimate the personal reputational/career gains to themselves from contributing to open source. So, a large portion of open source c…

>I'm saying that for a lot of open source software, virtually 100% of the beneficiaries are corporations

And this is bullshit. Most popular open source projects see heavy usage in academia, personal projects, public projects, government projects, etc. Python is a massive reason any students know how to program at all.

Re: The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

#180
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It basically boils down to whether you think people are really being altruistic, or whether it's simply reciprocal altruism.

sure-- but the main difference is that the community pretends to be super altruistic under the guise of doing god's work for the good of all developers. it comes off as super fake. at least thats sort of the vibe i get from it. i also dont have a huge sample size of repos so maybe im talking mostly out of my ass in this case i would honestly rather it all be backed by corps and people get paid for it without any hint…

> i would honestly rather it all be backed by corps and people get paid for it without any hints of "benevolent dictators"

Well don't use opensource software then, go buy it... It's your choice...

Just like it's the choice of a developer to give away something they made for free...

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