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100 million dollars to reshape the economics of the web

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Re: 100 million dollars to reshape the economics of the web

#171
post #3

It's crazy, that we still do not have something like "Cash" on the internet. A simple, anonymous way to pay 10 cent or so. To use a website or read an article. That would make the world so much better for indie developers. Currently, an indie dev makes orders of magnitude less money per pageview then Google, Facebook and Co. Because those have all that advertising technology and ecosystem that indie devs don't have.…

Unfortunately the service that is free will always be more popular and ultimately win over more users. People have decided that paying with their privacy is better for them. I really wish paying 10 cents to use the service was the norm, but alas I doubt it will ever happen.

> People have decided that paying with their privacy is better for them

The hell we have, there's just no alternative other than not using what have essentially become utilities at this point. I applaud people for whom not having Facebook and Google and WhatsApp is an option, but it's not for me.

I'd gladly pay a large chunk of cash to have those companies not be doing shady shit with my data and showing me adverts, but that's not an option available to me.

Re: 100 million dollars to reshape the economics of the web

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of seems like a troubling insight at first glance, but it doesn't pass basic sanity checks imo. You could make the same exact argument about any other type of industry. Watch: >The [pool of discretionary income people have to spend on books] is a small fraction of [all commercial companies' marketing budgets], therefore it will always be more profitable to run free bookstores that try to make money by putti…

I think what you're missing is that discretionary spending is not all spending, and marketing budgets are a percentage of all spending. When I go to CNN.com right now, I see ads for Tide pods and Toyota SUVs. That ad spend came from our supermarket and car payments, which you can't redirect to tipping websites unless you want to stop eating and driving to work. My argument is basically that no web monetization plan t…

But for any given business the maths work out differently. Building a dedicated audience in a niche who are willing to pay for a thing directly is easier than wrestling with the advertising industry to try and extract enough ad revenue to keep going.

Re: 100 million dollars to reshape the economics of the web

#173
post #3

It's crazy, that we still do not have something like "Cash" on the internet. A simple, anonymous way to pay 10 cent or so. To use a website or read an article. That would make the world so much better for indie developers. Currently, an indie dev makes orders of magnitude less money per pageview then Google, Facebook and Co. Because those have all that advertising technology and ecosystem that indie devs don't have.…

I think Twitter is missing out on a big opportunity for micropayments by letting users "tip" real money when favoriting tweets. Content creators would be incentivized to use Twitter more if they can make money directly from tweeting. More content from more content creators would also attract more users. Content stealing and reposting would be a bigger problem, but you can somewhat address it with text and image match…

> micropayments by letting users "tip" real money when favoriting tweets. Content creators would be incentivized to use Twitter more if they can make money directly from tweeting.

I'd honestly delete my Twitter account if they introduced that. Twitter as a social media channel is fine (to keep up with creator's content elsewhere and maybe the odd follow-up generated by that content) but there is zero content in my feed I'd be prepared to pay any money for (and that would still hold if it was longer form/mixed media).

Re: 100 million dollars to reshape the economics of the web

#174

Forget micro-payments. Ban web advertising at the browser level. Create a browser that thoroughly and intentionally integrates ad blocking and has a statements of how it renders HTML with UX constraints (think Google AMP but actually good). What happens? Most content sources dry-up and stop. I no longer see that as a bad thing. Out every every 100 content mills that are re-aggregating and summarizing someone else's o…

> What happens? What happens if you do that without enough market share is that the browser gets detected and banned/redirected with a message about it being hostile to the people making the content. To some degree, they would be correct. If chrome, Firefox and Safari all did that all at once, many web properties would go under before the dust settled. It would probably cause a recession with how many people it affec…

Don't forget that it would also make bezos even richer as amazon.com is the only place people know off the top of their heads to buy anything

Re: 100 million dollars to reshape the economics of the web

#175
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately the service that is free will always be more popular and ultimately win over more users. People have decided that paying with their privacy is better for them. I really wish paying 10 cents to use the service was the norm, but alas I doubt it will ever happen.

Netflix&Co. are more expensive than bittorrent, and yet the former have gained significant market-share over the latter over the years. If you want to compete with free you have to offer superior quality and convenience.

And being legal has absolutely nothing to do with it?

Re: 100 million dollars to reshape the economics of the web

#176

None of these web monetization efforts address the fact that the pool of [all consumers' discretionary income they'd be willing to spend] is likely a small fraction of the size of [all commercial companies' marketing budgets]. No matter how much you reduce the friction for having people make small tips to websites, there's just significantly less money to go around, so it can never replace advertising revenue. The on…

That's not exactly how it works.

I don't price my products depending on marketing.

Marketing is a % of my profit I'm willing to spend, to try new things.

Re: 100 million dollars to reshape the economics of the web

#178
Some seriously over-engineered solutions being offered in this thread, which I guess is understandable considering the cohort. And I'm glad that people smarter than me are looking at this from every angle. But here are the things that I know/feel to be true:

1) Back when advertising subsidised content was a straight up proposition nobody really minded about ads outside of finding them mildly annoying. It's how the most popular pre-internet content (privately owned free to air TV and newspapers/magazines) survived and flourished.

2) What most irks people about the current ad-tech based business model isn't the advertising, it's the data mining behind it.

3) Lots of people don't even care about data mining as long as they get what they need instantly, easily and for free.

4) The big ad-tech players' emergence and dominance after the bursting of the early 2000s dotcom bubble is widely attributed to their mastery of ad-tech whereas it seems to be that consolidation and concentration were much larger factors.

5) Ad-tech enabled targeted advertising isn't that much more effective than traditional- or content-based advertising (I wish I had the source for this but it seemed legit when I read it... Surveillance Capitalism, maybe?)

What feeds the ad-tech industry really is advertisers' FOMO on the algorithms touted by the ad-tech vendors. "Why buy a traditional mass-spray ad when you can have one delivered with surgical precision?" goes the sales pitch. And considering the old saw about 50% of advertising being useless but nobody knows which 50% it is, having numbers and measurable insights dangled in front of you must be compelling.

My suggestion is that we try to steer things back to content-based advertising. Of course the web needs to make money. Money is a great incentive for innovation, etc. Of course users aren't going to pay for it except in exceptional circumstances. We've been spoiled with too much free content to turn that ship around now. But if I'm on a site about skiing for example and I see an ad for a ski store that has a sale, that's a good and useful piece of advertising. I'm happy to see that, as long as it doesn't follow me around the web for the next 6 months.

And how do we steer companies to do the right thing? The only way that has proven to be effective over the years - by naming and shaming, boycotting the bad actors and supporting the good ones. Basically making the costs of behaving badly outweigh the benefits.

How do we get there? I haven't figured that bit out yet. The big problem is that it's kind of axiomatic that the likelihood of change is inversely proportional to the amount of money being generated by the status quo, and hundreds of billions of dollars is a lot of weight to throw behind keeping the current system humming along as is.

Re: 100 million dollars to reshape the economics of the web

#179

None of these web monetization efforts address the fact that the pool of [all consumers' discretionary income they'd be willing to spend] is likely a small fraction of the size of [all commercial companies' marketing budgets]. No matter how much you reduce the friction for having people make small tips to websites, there's just significantly less money to go around, so it can never replace advertising revenue. The on…

This kind of seems like a troubling insight at first glance, but it doesn't pass basic sanity checks imo. You could make the same exact argument about any other type of industry. Watch: >The [pool of discretionary income people have to spend on books] is a small fraction of [all commercial companies' marketing budgets], therefore it will always be more profitable to run free bookstores that try to make money by putti…

To add to your argument: Spotify has 206 million users - almost half of which are paid subscribers.[0] This describes exactly the point of contention since free users are financing spotify through ads instead.

I think it is also plausible to assume that among the paid subscribers a higher margin are primary users of spotify for music consumption, while free users have a higher share of secondary users (relying more on vynil, CDs, limewire).

The dark side then again for example are news sites - very few of which seem to be able to finance themselves well via subscription services.

[0]https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/apple-music-has-reportedly-p...

Re: 100 million dollars to reshape the economics of the web

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure where you got this idea. Ad-blocking might hurt in some future with hypothetically high enough percentages of traffic. Right now they make ads more effective (marginally). By self selection, a population with relatively low click-rates has removed themselves from having any money spent on them. This helps Google and Advertisers since right now, the volume of available impressions is plenty high, the name…

This sounds completely reasonable to me, and I don't know where it's wrong, but it doesn't square with my experience and I think it's wrong. If this were true, nobody would be getting mad about ad blockers. But both advertisers and publishers (big and small) regularly complain about ad blockers, and even with a relatively small portion of users installing a blocker, multiple journalism sites have started adding paywa…

I always thought that the big problem for advertisers was who blocks ads. Adwords stopped being effective for me years ago, looking back I assume that's because I sell to a technical audience who are most likely to run adblockers.

I wonder if that applies to income as well, are people with higher purchasing power more likely to block ads. My gut feeling is yes.

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