France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra • Hacker News Board

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#791

Post by thecrazyone » Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 2:37 PM UTC

flashyfaffe wrote: post #681

theturtletalks wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good point, but other companies do this without recourse. Paypal is the classic example. They will literally ban you overnight and hold your funds for months. Oh and forget knowing the reason, because revealing why you got banned would reveal too much about their filter algorithm. The key is to diversify where you buy and how you buy it so you're not dependent on any one company.

Agree with you with the necessity of diversification. The issue is not Facebook issuing its own crypto but rather the potential control we let it take over. I believe that the same reason related to control that an entity can people on people (combined with the new technology) helped to originate bitcoin. The need to ensure no one ( including governments) deciding people's life by manipulating own belongings (by tax…

By your logic, banning it through regulation decreases options and hence diversification.

Governments are not angels which seems to be an assumption in your and sibling replies. They're a bully who doesn't want someone else to get power.

I'm not being extreme, humor me. If the govt didn't want a monopoly, isn't it a hypocrisy that they themselves are one?

The proper thing to would've been to get closer to anarcho-capitalism, ie let there be govt currency and FB's libra. Let people decide what they want to use.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#792

Post by auslander » Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 2:57 PM UTC

squiggleblaz wrote: post #763

auslander wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can't risk to have anything even remotely approaching a monopoly in any part of the systems involved in making transactions. AFAIK US is a monopoly for international money transfer. You just cannot bypass a US intermediary bank and US Dollar conversion.

I regularly transfer money from AUD to IDR or EUR, and from Australian bank accounts to Indonesian or Euro, without any apparent transition with US intermediary banks and USD conversions. I did surprise someone from Eastern Europe when I was in Indonesia that I had never touched USD, so I guess in some parts of the world USD is important. Many of my non-mediated transactions go through American institutions (e.g. Mas…

> I did surprise someone from Eastern Europe when I was in Indonesia that I had never touched USD

Thanks, as I thought, most international money transfers involve USD and, because of USD, have to use US based intermediaries.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#793

Post by suthakamal » Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 3:43 PM UTC

thecrazyone wrote: post #791

flashyfaffe wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with you with the necessity of diversification. The issue is not Facebook issuing its own crypto but rather the potential control we let it take over. I believe that the same reason related to control that an entity can people on people (combined with the new technology) helped to originate bitcoin. The need to ensure no one ( including governments) deciding people's life by manipulating own belongings (by tax…

By your logic, banning it through regulation decreases options and hence diversification. Governments are not angels which seems to be an assumption in your and sibling replies. They're a bully who doesn't want someone else to get power. I'm not being extreme, humor me. If the govt didn't want a monopoly, isn't it a hypocrisy that they themselves are one? The proper thing to would've been to get closer to anarcho-cap…

You speak as though corporations and democratic governments are the same thing. The government is (at least notionally) the will of the people. A corporation is unaccountable to anyone but it’s shareholders. It is folly to treat EU legislators the same as Zuck et al.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#794

Post by logifail » Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 6:46 PM UTC

noisem4ker wrote: post #5

grezql wrote: post #3

I wish they just blocked facebook altogether. It has caused people more pain than good

Blocking a communication platform doesn't sound right in a free society. There's nothing inherently wrong with connecting people. On the other hand, there should be heavy regulation and enforcement in place so that users don't get their data unknowingly exploited for commercial interest.

> There's nothing inherently wrong with connecting people

"..assuming informed consent from everyone involved/affected"?

Q: What about if a third party starts putting information about you on FB and you've not even been told in advance, never mind given consent?*

* this happened to me two weeks ago. I don't have a FB account.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#795

Post by pvorb » Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 6:47 PM UTC

wnkrshm wrote: post #673

auslander wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU internal ones are likely an exception. Not an expert myself, it just consolidated in my mind as a fact from all the books and articles over the years.

EU internal transfers are most likely made by SEPA (Single Euro Payments Area) infrastructure (with European clearing entities) or for large sums by direct communication/deals between the European banks. Why would any US entity be needed for this?

Exactly. And since most corporations I deal with have at least an office in a European country, I almost never have to deal with US banks.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#796

Post by Zak » Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 7:33 PM UTC

lostjohnny wrote: post #772

Zak wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite fond of the idea of a decentralized currency that nobody has the ability to actively control becoming popular. That would act as a hedge against abuse of power by both governments and corporations. A currency used worldwide, controlled by a corporation, and under the influence of the US government would be the exact opposite, and is not a thing I want to see succeed.

> nobody has the ability to actively control AKA only the really powerful entities can AKA "dictatorship"

A really powerful entity, let's say Facebook, or the US government would find it difficult to do any of these with Bitcoin (used as the example because it's well-known):

* Alter the monetary policy significantly

* Prevent a specific person, organization, or country from using the currency

* Prevent the use of the currency for specific goods or services

That doesn't make using Bitcoin a magic bullet to be free from the influence of the US government even if its popularity and monetary policy were appropriate for widespread use as a currency, but it raises the difficulty level versus influencing someone who's doing business in USD.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#797

Post by javert » Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 8:14 PM UTC

javert wrote: post #753

mrb wrote: post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, read very carefully the way they worded the sentence. What is "inherent to the sovereignty of nations" is not "monetary power" but "no private entities having control of monetary power". They are not saying governments should have control of this power. They are just saying no private entities should have control.

I don't think you are right. From the article: > In a joint statement, the two governments affirmed that “no private entity can claim monetary power, which is inherent to the sovereignty of nations” I parse that as: monetary power is inherent to the sovereignty of nations; thus, no private entity can claim it. It's like saying: "No dog should be allowed to eat chocolate, which is toxic to animals." It would be helpfu…

Since I am getting downvoted: Is this a Continental English vs. American English thing? Because as a native American English speaker, there is no doubt at all what the sentence means in American English.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#798

Post by boring_twenties » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:27 AM UTC

lostjohnny wrote: post #779

wyattpeak wrote: post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original comment is about German attitudes towards the accumulation of power, which are a direct product of their experiences with Nazism. Germans don't want uncontrolled groups accumulating power precisely because it could lead to a situation like Nazi Germany. Once Godwin's law became a meme it outlived its usefulness. Yes, people tend to hyperbolically compare things to the Nazis. But the Nazis were a real thi…

> But the Nazis were a real thing that happened in the real world not because of inflation though. if you wanna be historically accurate.

I'm no historian, but it seems to me the hyperinflation of the Weimar Republic, and the resulting destruction of many Germans' life savings, were a big factor in why Hitler's rhetoric was appealing to many.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#799

Post by AzzieElbab » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:45 AM UTC

lucb1e wrote: post #605

AzzieElbab wrote: post #493

Is EUR a threat to souverinity of the nations then? What is the difference between libra and BTC if not the sad state of affairs wrt to btc's usefulness as an everyday currency?

> What is the difference between libra and BTC Libra is owned by a company and Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency. But I guess we now not only lost the war on the definitions of 'hacker' (media word for cracker) and 'crypto' (media word for cryptocurrency), but also cryptocurrency (media word for digitally exchangeable currency, e.g. Paypal credits / gift cards / Facebook Libra). We'll have to find a new word to distinguish…

to be honest, I am not entirely sure about the precise definition of permissioned-blockchain-based, assets-backed, electronic currency that is also mostly vaporware at this time. The ownership is also non-linear. So, IMHO France and Germany are banning something that not only does not exist but also not even clearly defined. which feels like either a "fu Zuck" or "we are scared"

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#800

Post by 50656E6973 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:07 AM UTC

Jonanin wrote: post #152

50656E6973 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>hating on Facebook is an excellent excuse for people to feel superior to the general population. "I know better than those ignorant proles, I wish they'd do what I think is best for them instead of what they want to do." Ironic; that's the same ethos being espoused and implemented by those who run Facebook.

Do you have any examples of that ethos being "espoused" by Facebook?

Its inherent in the business model: profiting off making people think, do, and buy things they otherwise would not have. Ever since the news feed ceased to be chronological, FB has become increasingly forceful with their filtering and sorting of people's minds primarily in accordance with what increases FB's profits.