France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra • Hacker News Board

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#551

Post by throwaway744678 » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 10:48 PM UTC

Youden wrote: post #509

kypro wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe has developed a fairly anti-US-big-tech attitude recently. As a Brit I kind of understand it. We probably don't benefit from importing all of our 21st century products and services from the US, especially when these companies don't pay any taxes in our countries. Europe as a market has higher taxes, more regulation, and has more cultural barriers giving us a huge disadvantage when trying to compete in the glob…

> Europe has developed a fairly anti-US-big-tech attitude recently I don't think it's an "anti-US-big-tech attitude" so much as an aversion to companies that have repeatedly been found to break the law (be it tax, competition, privacy or otherwise). You don't (at least I don't) really see much hostility towards Apple, Netflix or Microsoft, despite them being large US tech companies. The only examples I can come up wi…

For all of the companies you mentioned: taxes. They all use either a double Irish with a Dutch sandwich, or are incorporated in a tax haven (Uber, Amazon in Luxemburg)

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#552

Post by smsm42 » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 10:48 PM UTC

blackbrokkoli wrote: post #225

I'm of course not familiar with the specific mindsets and the history of this decision, but I want to share a bit of cultural perspective from Germany that is so far not really considered in this comment section: Germany is very, very keen on preventing powerful entities from acting outside of regulation and similarly, if not more, on preventing a single entity to get in control of everything. This is largely due to…

You sound like somebody tried to force you to trade in Libra and German government prevented it. But Libra is not money - unless you choose to trade in it and use it as medium of exchange, and nobody so far tried to make dealing with it involuntary. So what exactly German government saved you from?

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#553

Post by brownbat » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 10:52 PM UTC

akie wrote: post #396

buboard wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, Germany generally also controls the Euro for the so called PIIGS countries. For all intents and purposes the euro is just as much as an externally-controlled entity as the Libra.

Oh come on, you’re being (deliberately?) quite liberal with the truth here.

The first poster compared a proposed digital currency--one that no one might ever even use--to Nazi-era fascism and an assault on democracy.

Buboard suggests that Germany exerts coercive monetary pressure over some other Eurozone countries. That crosses the line for you?

If Ireland had independent monetary policy maybe it could have lanced the bubble earlier and not been hit with 14% unemployment after the end of the Celtic tiger era. If Greece didn't have Merkel on the other side of every table, it could have attempted something similar to the Plano Real, rebasing its currency completely and restructuring its society through default.

Or maybe they would be way worse off without Germany. Who knows? A claim that Germany has an outsized impact on monetary policy, at times to the disadvantage of other negotiators, is certainly debatable! But it's not the sort of thing you can brush aside ad lapidem. Especially not in the context of this farcically hyperbolic thread.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#554

Post by ImaCake » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 10:53 PM UTC

jackvalentine wrote: post #106

Avamander wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe has SEPA (Instant). The Chinese have WeChat Pay and similar? I'm curious, what other solutions other countries have?

Australia has the New Payments Platform (Osko to consumers) that is basically instant.

Just to add, if you don't need instant payments we also have other convenient and direct transfers between banks in Australia.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#555

Post by smsm42 » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 10:54 PM UTC

"no private entity can claim monetary power, which is inherent to the sovereignty of nations" - very bizzare statement. What's "monetary power"? If it's the power to make certain medium of exchange legal tender, Facebook certainly didn't claim that, moreover, by very definition of it such power can not belong to a private entity - a private entity can not force German government to accept taxes in Libra, for example. The power to set legal tender is inherently governmental power, and there's no need to proclaim this banality as something that isn't obvious by definition.

On the other hand, there are thousands real and virtual moneys that exist and can be exchanged for real and virtual goods - from game money to crypto tokens to vouchers to points and miles, and so on. There is literally thousands of entities that create means of exchange that later can be exchanged for goods, and commonly are - and nobody has ever had trouble with that, at least not in any free countries (in USSR, you'd got no miles for flights :). So what changed?

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#556

Post by downandout » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 10:58 PM UTC

StreamBright wrote: post #542

downandout wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is zero evidence that any activity conducted on Facebook has ever actually swung a single election. As far as I can tell, that is hyperbole as well.

Absolutely. A $5 billion USD hyperbole. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook–Cambridge_Analytica_d... "The governments of India[30][31] and Brazil[32][33] demanded that Cambridge Analytica report how anyone used data from the breach in political campaigning, and various regional governments in the United States have lawsuits in their court systems from citizens affected by the data breach.[34] On April 25, 2018, Fa…

Nothing you provided is evidence that any Facebook activity has ever swung any election. The very people that paid Cambridge Analytica for their services in 2016 said that the company’s strategies were ineffective at best, referring to it as “snake oil” [1]. You have provided evidence that people attempted to use Facebook to swing an election. Those two things are not the same.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/03/2...

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#557

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 10:58 PM UTC

brianpgordon wrote: post #267

aazaa wrote: post #27

> “no private entity can claim monetary power, which is inherent to the sovereignty of nations” What a bizarre statement. Providing for security is also inherent to sovereignty of nations, but private security firms flourish. It's also odd in the context of Germany in particular where a private currency has been used for many years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemgauer I suspect there's a lot more behind this sta…

> This conflict means that, no matter how well intentioned, policy makers will be feel compelled to devalue their own currencies. It's a race to the bottom, but without a bottom. Alternatives, especially private alternatives readily available to citizens, will increasingly be viewed as the enemy. The ability to devalue their currency is an essential tool that central banks wield to battle financial crises. Keynes poi…

[deleted]

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#558

Post by throwaway2048 » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 11:02 PM UTC

Smithalicious wrote: post #487

riking wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you (1) employed by the Libra Foundation or Facebook, (2) in possession of a large Libra stake, or (3) duped by the marketing and in possession of a large amount of free time?

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a paid shill. Responding to a legitimate argument with some kind of absurd accusation will always make you look like you lost the argument.

Except you know, shills exist, and are real, so lets not make up some kind of even lamer "Godwin's law" about it.

Doesn't mean its (always) sensible to accuse people you disagree with of course.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#559

Post by ahakki » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 11:03 PM UTC

jeena wrote: post #363

lostlogin wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ll stick to using my money as money thanks. It works fine.

Not in Sweden anymore, most of the lunch places in Gothenburg where I live don't allow payment by cache anymore. If you have money but not digital, you will go hungry nowadays.

This would never fly in Switzerland. You need to accept Swiss Franc Banknotes of any denomination as settlement for any monetary debt (this includes a purchase of a 1.- stick of gum paid for with a CHF 1000 Bill. there will be some arguing required for that one in practice, but the law is clear).

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#560

Post by evross » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 11:04 PM UTC

johnnycab wrote: post #170

aazaa wrote: post #27

> “no private entity can claim monetary power, which is inherent to the sovereignty of nations” What a bizarre statement. Providing for security is also inherent to sovereignty of nations, but private security firms flourish. It's also odd in the context of Germany in particular where a private currency has been used for many years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemgauer I suspect there's a lot more behind this sta…

This clip from Mr. Robot S02e11 regarding eCoin, substituted with Libra in this case, maps suprisingly well to the hypothetical narrative on the shifting nature of skewed monetary power. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ee-cHbCI0s

"Be my guest, regulate the sh1t out of it. I'll give you side-doors, back-doors, trackers, whatever you want. Just don't shut it down." Intense scene. Good decision by Germany/France on this one. This is the kind of thing has to be stopped soon because once it starts being popular it becomes more of a corporate power-capture pandemic.