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France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

reuters.com

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Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#441

Post by Barrin92 »

atemerev wrote: post #236
Barrin92 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think Blackwater would fly in Germany or France?

Germany: Asgaard Security Group France: Wagram Protection, Secopex, and many others. PMCs are everywhere.

the last time I heard something about asgaard was years ago but as far as I know they're almost exclusively in personal security.

It's true that on the fringes there are private intelligence companies but the way the US has used PMC's, which at some point outnumbered american soldiers in the middle east, is a privatization of war not really thinkable in europe.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#442

Post by IGotThroughIt »

bko wrote: post #361
lostlogin wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ll stick to using my money as money thanks. It works fine.

I'm glad that you live in a country with a stable monetary supply, little to no inflation and no capital controls.

Indeedy. My country has 7% inflation. And that calculation is done by the very state that is responsible for inflation so their word on this only means so much. Any other currency or store of value that solves this is more than welcome.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#443

Post by bko »

riking wrote: post #430
bko wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook has a non controlling stake in Libra. Libra Foundation is an independent, not-for-profit membership organization. Do you feel a similar threat of non-profits that try to give financial opportunities to people around the world?

Are you (1) employed by the Libra Foundation or Facebook, (2) in possession of a large Libra stake, or (3) duped by the marketing and in possession of a large amount of free time?

1. No. I have a facebook account but I haven't posted in years

2. No. I don't think its available yet. Its not really meant to be a speculative investment since it's backed by a basket of stable currencies. Although it may be like a closed-end mutual fund where the investment could trade below or above net asset value. But I wouldn't recommend speculating on some price increase even if it takes off

3. No, I'm just interest in cryptocurrencies read the white paper [0]. I suggest you do the same. It's pretty interesting. I do have a fair bit of free time though

[0] https://libra.org/en-US/white-paper/#introducing-libra

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#444

Post by TulliusCicero »

kypro wrote: post #427
lacker wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strange part to me is just that there are already hundreds of crypto currencies available in Germany. When the government says that yes, these hundreds of currencies are fine, but Facebook can’t create one, then it just seems like the policy is anti-Facebook for the sake of being anti-Facebook.

Europe has developed a fairly anti-US-big-tech attitude recently. As a Brit I kind of understand it. We probably don't benefit from importing all of our 21st century products and services from the US, especially when these companies don't pay any taxes in our countries. Europe as a market has higher taxes, more regulation, and has more cultural barriers giving us a huge disadvantage when trying to compete in the glob…

> We probably don't benefit from importing all of our 21st century products and services from the US

This amounts to "our country is bad at [thing], so let's restrict trade for [thing] to protect our industries."

Of course it sounds great until other countries counter by restricting the thing you are good at, and then everyone loses.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#445

Post by JAlexoid »

AlexCoventry wrote: post #416
lacker wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strange part to me is just that there are already hundreds of crypto currencies available in Germany. When the government says that yes, these hundreds of currencies are fine, but Facebook can’t create one, then it just seems like the policy is anti-Facebook for the sake of being anti-Facebook.

Ideologically, at least, extant cryptocurrencies aim to decentralize power, whereas the OP was saying that German resistance to Libra comes from a concern about the centralized power it might afford. That's not mere bigotry.

That's why it's specifically Lubra* that is being addressed.

* - Intentional typo, for a double entendre.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#446

Post by bko »

4ntonius8lock wrote: post #435
bko wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the way Facebook did this was the right way. It set up Libra as an independent non-profit and they have a non controlling share. The founding members include Stripe, Visa, Mastercard and PayPal. All the media coverage on Libra is incredibly dishonest and ill-informed.

Yes, but Facebook will have enormous power in this deal as they own the platform. Distrusting them is the only logical conclusion given their track record and power. Libra isn't a decentralized crypto currency, it's a new fiat currency minted by a private corporation with a very questionable track record and an uncomfortable amount of concentrated power. It's also seated in a country with a very weak track record enf…

> They are in essence trying to bring billions (trillions?) of dollars worth of the worlds savings into US jurisdiction (and likely invested in the US economy via bonds and stocks

That's not true:

> What are the actual assets that will be backing each Libra coin? The actual assets will be a collection of low-volatility assets, including bank deposits and government securities in currencies from stable and reputable central banks.[0]

[0] https://libra.org/en-US/about-currency-reserve/#the_reserve

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#447

Post by TuringNYC »

downandout wrote: post #407
burlesona wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's legally tricky to be anti-Facebook for the sake of being anti-Facebook, but I don't think it's morally tricky. The entire idea of anti-trust (and frankly, the premise of most western democracies) is to prevent the over-concentration of power. Facebook is the most powerful private entity on the earth right now, far more powerful than most nation states. I'm not sure that we as a society have ever dealt with a non…

Facebook is the most powerful private entity on the earth right now, far more powerful than most nation states. This is hyperbole at best. Facebook does not have an army, weapons, or literally anyone that would be willing to die or even be physically put out to defend it. I’m no Facebook fan, but let’s not let Facebook hysteria overrun these comments.

It is unrealistically limiting to think modern wars are fought only with armies. Most wars are quiet and fought with capital, thought, rhetoric, and policy. Armies only come into the picture if all else fails.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#448

Post by JAlexoid »

bko wrote: post #429
oblio wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming those people are not forced, tricked or otherwise persuaded by a company worth hundreds of billions of dollars, to use Libra. And that company has every incentive to do what I listed above. It also has very shady morals, as proven repeatedly. Yes, it's a small individual loss (not being to invest in Libra) but probably a big collective gain.

> You're assuming those people are not forced, tricked or otherwise persuaded by a company worth hundreds of billions of dollars, to use Libra Anybody who creates a product tries to persuade people to use their product. You can be a cynic and just attribute ill intent of basically everything but it's not really productive Facebook doesn't control Libra. They have a non-controlling stake in the Libra Foundation, a non…

Facebook has the power of market to force you to use Libra. Just like Apple had the power to introduce NFC payment terminals in US.

That's fundamentally anti free market.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#449

Post by Legogris »

bko wrote: post #374
the-dude wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a history perspective : the hyperinflation leading up to the 3rd Reich.

Which is one reason why capital controls are so destructive. Allowing denizens to keep their savings in whatever form they so choose is a human right. Libra will afford people the option to invest in and use a token that is backed 1 for 1 to a basket of global currencies and government bonds at a low cost.

If this was purely launched as an investment vehicle that people could put their savings in, I am not certain that the regulatory response would be the same. This is a mischaracterization of what Libra even intends to be. It's marketed as a new financial system if you read their whitepaper.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#450

Post by wil421 »

Tomte wrote: post #360
wil421 wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is accepted everywhere. Not in my experience in the least bit. Germany was the only place that I’ve been where there were so many non-credit card restaurants etc. I was traveling for work in Bavaria and baden-württemberg. It was an issue and we had to make sure I selected the right place to use my work cc. I took some personal time in Munich and most of the places I went were cash only. 2 students, one from Finla…

Strange, I'm living in Germany, hailing from Baden-Württemberg and now been living in Northrhine-Westphalia for almost ten years, and I cannot remember a single restaurant that doesn't accept credit cards. And I'm paying almost everything with credit card. Sure, the ice cream stand at the swimming pool only accepts cash, as does the local discotheque, but restaurants? Never a problem.

Munich was much worse. 3 lunch cafes, coffee shop, bar, and one of the beer gardens. Luckily I was warned and asked the places before I went.

Even the cab to the Munch airport would only accept cash. I had to walk across the airport to get it. His payment app was “not working”.

In Stuttgart it was only the smaller places. Although we made sure find places that took corporate Amex using a website.

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