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Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

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Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#191

Post by Fins »

jhall1468 wrote: post #91
skrebbel wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't advocate that corporate execs have shielding and the engineers don't. Where did you read that? It sounds to me that you're misreading my comment on purpose, to make an us-vs-them argument that I fundamentally disagree with. This isn't about engineers vs bosses, it's about doing the right thing no matter what's on your business card. The argument "if we can't shift the blame up, it'll automatically go down" si…

I read that by the fact that you only talked about punishing engineers. And I'm not misreading your comment on purpose, trust me I had to read it 4 times just to make sure I wasn't crazy and I was actually reading what I thought I was: someone advocating that bottom of the food chain employees be criminally liable for code they write. You are making an us-vs-them argument, to be sure. Your "us" is consumers and your…

[I expect if I'm being asked to do something, it's been vetted by our corporate legal team. I should not be expected to know every aspect of criminal and civil law to protect myself from my employer.]

"I have been only following orders" had stopped being a valid defense quite a long time ago.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#192

Post by [deleted] »

Jabbles wrote: post #68
hos234 wrote: post #30

Zuckerberg & Co are going to play the 'we will loose to China card'. Which is going to slow down any kind of regulations... What's weird is, why there is no great rumbling against China's big tech within China. By now Chinese big tech should have wrecked the same unintended consequences and damage as American big tech. Whats going on there? I am guessing once things blow up there then we see global consensus on regul…

China isn't a democracy?

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#193

Post by chroma »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #62
hd4 wrote: post #9

Why can't big tech self-regulate? Why must it always be a solution that depends on big government instead? Why should anyone trust the government given the last few thousand years of history?

Why do we need big government to prevent us from stealing or killing each other? Maybe the whole society should self regulate?

This is a straw man. A government can try to stop theft and violent crime without building regulatory moats around incumbent companies.

Though in many places governments aren't great at preventing theft and violence. That's why even in developed countries, many companies hire private security, citizens learn self-defense, and some people carry pepper spray, knives, or even firearms.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#194

Post by batmansmk »

GreaterFool wrote: post #52

> that governments need to put some "guardrails" around engineers and the tech titans they serve The evil engineers! Not the managers, CEOs and so on, but engineers. The true root of evil. Finally someone recognizes who's really at fault

During a bid to offer, I was asked to give a good review of one of the prospects by my N+2. I gave the honest bad review this bidder deserve and left immediately after. No other engineer has wanted to replace me. Later the call to offer got cancelled, my ex-N+2 let go.

I understood that if I refuse to do something, there is a substantial possibility that nobody else will do it. If I accept contributing to something malevolent, it makes me complicit.

What we know is rare.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#195

Post by mnm1 »

Hard to take something like this seriously coming from Microsoft's president. Either he wants regulation to keep competition out or to hinder competitors or he'd regulate Microsoft himself if he really believed in regulation. He doesn't. This is just a ploy. Should these companies be regulated? Of course. But let's not believe they want it for the good of everyone else. They have selfish interests only. Period. Believing this drivel is foolish.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#196

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

skrebbel wrote: post #162
coding123 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kinda like asking all the ICE (internal combustion engine) engineers at ford, toyota, nissan, dodge, etc... to stop working on ICE right now because of climate change. Now they can do that, and ask to be re-assigned to EVs, but you can bet they can't replace all those jobs with EV jobs. (at least immediately, maybe in 10 to 20 years)

First off, I'm referring to significantly more unethical stuff than making an ICE. But even then, the programmers working on ICEs can find a different job in a heartbeat. I'm not asking the other people working at these, or any, companies to do the same. I'm asking people with top in-demand skills to start considering the ethics of their jobs.

>But even then, the programmers working on ICEs can find a different job in a heartbeat.

Not even close.

As a former embedded software engineer for the automotive sector, moving to another industry was a very difficult task, as in automotive you pidgenhole yourself in some tech that's specific to this industry and is outdated or not used everywhere else.

Thank God I got out in time.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#197

Post by blackflame7000 »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #184
blackflame7000 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea but that would kill Facebook by a 1000 lashes overtime.

So killing any startup’s chance of hosting user created content is ok as long as it kills Facebook?

You are most certainly putting words in my mouth. The words on the internet should be protected under the 1st amendment no matter how disgusting and no one should have to shoulder that burden except the members of society themselves in how they go about their conduct. In my opinion, it is not people's responsibility to be unoffensive, but rather it is our own responsibility to not let offensive thoughts permeate our being.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#198

Post by anigbrowl »

jhall1468 wrote: post #83
skrebbel wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been better. "My boss told me to do it" is not an excuse. I, for one, hope more engineers involved in fraud (eg VW), privacy breaches (eg Facebook) etc get tried and punished. It might help make programmers realize that yes, your work actually affects real humans and yes, y…

The moment you open that door you have created the ultimate scapegoat in every corporate decision. Now every engineer is personally responsible for corporate decisions. It's easy when you look at VW and Facebook, but the more nuanced these things get, the more that what your advocating for is that programmers have to be lawyers as well. This horrible precedent and pushes the blame for everything downstairs. Meanwhile…

No. Programmers don't have to be lawyers but they do have to make ethical decisions and be willing to enforce them (by walking away from money offers to do something that violates their principles).

Sure, executives will always try to push the blame downstairs. That's why you should be willing to sell them out if necessary.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#199

Post by anigbrowl »

jhall1468 wrote: post #91
skrebbel wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't advocate that corporate execs have shielding and the engineers don't. Where did you read that? It sounds to me that you're misreading my comment on purpose, to make an us-vs-them argument that I fundamentally disagree with. This isn't about engineers vs bosses, it's about doing the right thing no matter what's on your business card. The argument "if we can't shift the blame up, it'll automatically go down" si…

I read that by the fact that you only talked about punishing engineers. And I'm not misreading your comment on purpose, trust me I had to read it 4 times just to make sure I wasn't crazy and I was actually reading what I thought I was: someone advocating that bottom of the food chain employees be criminally liable for code they write. You are making an us-vs-them argument, to be sure. Your "us" is consumers and your…

The top comment referenced a line in the article criticizing both 'engineers and tech titans' and then only addressed the first half with a 'poor me' argument, which seems to have distorted this entire thread.

I'm not a lawyer. I expect if I'm being asked to do something, it's been vetted by our corporate legal team. I should not be expected to know every aspect of criminal and civil law to protect myself from my employer.

That's you. I've quit jobs before because I was not willing to do something that went against my principles. I think it's pretty simple to ask yourself how you'd feel if you were on the opposite end of some questionable corporate action and later found out that you had been deceived or exploited.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#200

Post by shard »

eitland wrote: post #135
goatherders wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. The idea that whatever you are asked to do has been vetted by others is an abdication of ethical responsibility. At present, a lot of what tech companies do is still legal, but that doesnt make it right. It's still legal because the maps of cyber law are largely still uncharted. An engineer working on a project that tracks user behavior without consent (for example) shouldn't be absolved or responsibility b…

Sometimes it is not clear cut. Getting the same result in different ways can legal or not: Obvious example: Saving a x amount of money from taxes using a legal loophole is legal. An exact equal company trying to save the exact same amount of money by lying to is doing something illegal. Far less obvious example: Around here (and possibly elsewhere, I don't know) if you make a drink from wine and spirits you have to p…

A curious alcohol law with an interesting side effect. Where are you located?
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