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Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

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Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#161

Post by ihuman »

pgcj_poster wrote: post #130
mattmcknight wrote: post #44

The threats to democracy arguments are so overblown. We're about to have a huge election. There is no literal threat to democracy. Hmmm...it must be some kind of metaphor. So what do people mean when they say this? The NPR piece says Smith suggests "the Internet giants will cannibalize the very fabric of this country". This metaphor seems hyperbolic as well. To use "cannibalize" means that something will eat itself.…

Elections are only a small part of democracy. Things like free speech and privacy are also very important components of a functioning democracy.

I thought the basic definition of a democracy was a government where the members are voted on by the general population?

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#162

Post by skrebbel »

coding123 wrote: post #157
skrebbel wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't advocate that corporate execs have shielding and the engineers don't. Where did you read that? It sounds to me that you're misreading my comment on purpose, to make an us-vs-them argument that I fundamentally disagree with. This isn't about engineers vs bosses, it's about doing the right thing no matter what's on your business card. The argument "if we can't shift the blame up, it'll automatically go down" si…

It's kinda like asking all the ICE (internal combustion engine) engineers at ford, toyota, nissan, dodge, etc... to stop working on ICE right now because of climate change. Now they can do that, and ask to be re-assigned to EVs, but you can bet they can't replace all those jobs with EV jobs. (at least immediately, maybe in 10 to 20 years)

First off, I'm referring to significantly more unethical stuff than making an ICE.

But even then, the programmers working on ICEs can find a different job in a heartbeat.

I'm not asking the other people working at these, or any, companies to do the same. I'm asking people with top in-demand skills to start considering the ethics of their jobs.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#163

Post by coding123 »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #149
skrebbel wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been better. "My boss told me to do it" is not an excuse. I, for one, hope more engineers involved in fraud (eg VW), privacy breaches (eg Facebook) etc get tried and punished. It might help make programmers realize that yes, your work actually affects real humans and yes, y…

I’m ok with prosecuting software developers individually if we first require them to adhere to a set of standards in a similar fashion to real engineers .

It is interesting, but isn't the software organization, in general, the responsible party? If that software company and the sole developer are the same person (a one man company) then you already have that.

There's no software equivalent of a software engineer coming to someone's house to fix the code in an Alexa controlled light bulb - the responsible party is the lightbulb company.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#164

Post by slowmovintarget »

navigatesol wrote: post #120
jhall1468 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moment you open that door you have created the ultimate scapegoat in every corporate decision. Now every engineer is personally responsible for corporate decisions. It's easy when you look at VW and Facebook, but the more nuanced these things get, the more that what your advocating for is that programmers have to be lawyers as well. This horrible precedent and pushes the blame for everything downstairs. Meanwhile…

> Now every engineer is personally responsible for corporate decisions. This is the entire point. If the "corporate decision" involves doing bad things, and then you go ahead and implement those bad things as an engineer...you deserve to be held responsible for your part in it.

Because making the crowbar is part of the crime?

No, I don't think that makes a lot of sense. Many young engineers can't see societal potential in what they do. They see solving the technical problem and completing the task.

Senior engineers with a lot more experience have insight into "why" but that's often the point when they're given responsibility to guide others.

The "should we do this?" question rests on the shoulders of those with insight that faces the outside world, and not just the programmer's editor on the screen. That's management.

What do I know about it? Was an engineer (programmer), and now I run teams of engineers. I often have to direct them on how not to solve a problem, for reasons of customer privacy, security, or responsibility, as much as to what problem we must solve.

Responsibility increases the higher up you go in the management chain.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#165

Post by elevenbits »

> that governments need to put some "guardrails" around engineers and the tech titans they serve

No. We don't need "guardrails" at all. We have an existing legal system that works quite well to discourage companies from profiting from ventures we don't like: we simply make those ventures illegal. Companies have been able to make a profitable business out of harvesting personal data, abusing consent, etc., because these things aren't illegal. GDPR et al is the start of laws in this area, but a financial penalty is simply a business cost. If I can make $500B with a 25% chance of a $5B fine, the rational action is of course to proceed.

If there was a law about certain types of consent being legally required for certain types of data, THEN an engineer, manager, or exec can decide to either a) report the violation to authorities or b) become complicit themselves. When breaking these laws comes with real penalties (jail time, not fines), then the business can choose between a) do something illegal and government puts everyone in jail and takes all assets or b) don't do something illegal, which is exactly what we want.

Bottom line: No special regulation is required here. Simply make a law extending the personal data productions afforded by existing regulations and let the system do its job.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#166

Post by concordDance »

pytester wrote: post #45
Barrin92 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument is always repeated within the first ten minutes of these discussions, but I don't really understand why anyone assumes that competition is somehow the panacea to every problem on the planet. I don't want ten unregulated facebooks who all leak my data, I want one facebook that plays by reasonable rules. The dynamics of social networks which don't deliver value if they're fragmented has made the competiti…

This oversimplified "regulation is bad" idea is pushed by a lot of think tanks (e.g. CATO, americans for prosperity, freedomworks, heritage foundation) set up by the Koch brothers. They have close links with the media, which is why these weirdly specific views get parroted a lot. If you've ever read a story about the evils of hairdresser licensing (for instance), it's from them. They have been on a crusade against re…

It's also pushed by people who just observe how many things are legislated, read a bit of history (monopolies granted by kings, guilds stamping out competition via force, etc) and how cost disease has gotten so much worse.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#167

Post by pilsetnieks »

blackflame7000 wrote: post #156
pilsetnieks wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> anyone could say that some feature X that harms the user is actually just a bug and you would be hard pressed to beat reasonable doubt That would fall under criminal negligence then.

Ahh, so you see, additional regulation is not required.

The same way that harming people intentionally via software engineering is not regulated now, negligent harm isn't regulated either. I'm not expressing my support either way because this is a complex issue I haven't explored nearly enough - I'm just pointing out that current laws have stipulations for unintentional action or inaction as well.

Claiming ignorance, incompetence or other factors that might lead to unintentional harm does not get you off scot free.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#168

Post by andmarios »

skrebbel wrote: post #70
GreaterFool wrote: post #52

> that governments need to put some "guardrails" around engineers and the tech titans they serve The evil engineers! Not the managers, CEOs and so on, but engineers. The true root of evil. Finally someone recognizes who's really at fault

Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been better. "My boss told me to do it" is not an excuse. I, for one, hope more engineers involved in fraud (eg VW), privacy breaches (eg Facebook) etc get tried and punished. It might help make programmers realize that yes, your work actually affects real humans and yes, y…

Oh cool, so as an engineer I'm expected to know instantly if what I'm working on is legal or not, although most of these cases take years of legal battles or involve huge working bodies from EU, etc.

Maybe since engineers are expected to have such good judgement, companies should strip their legal and HR departments and just put related matters for vote in Jira.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#169

Post by surjrjfovjr »

Would I be wrong to translate as follows?

>Today, the tech giants — whose tools have been used to interfere in fair and free elections — are posing a much bigger threat to the political stability of many countries, including the U.S.

"Democracy does not work because people are easily manipulated by propaganda, so we need enlightened overlords to create better propaganda that will manipulate people to support my interests... uh, I mean, to support what's good for them."

>Smith has proposals that are not popular in Silicon Valley. For one, he argues, it's time to reform the U.S. law that says Internet platforms are not liable for just about any of the content running through their pipes — hate speech, death threats and ads for counterfeit goods or illegal guns.

"I love censorship. Let's have more of it!"

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#170

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

timwaagh wrote: post #154
skrebbel wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been better. "My boss told me to do it" is not an excuse. I, for one, hope more engineers involved in fraud (eg VW), privacy breaches (eg Facebook) etc get tried and punished. It might help make programmers realize that yes, your work actually affects real humans and yes, y…

Actually 'my boss told me to build it' is an excuse. if you dont build it, you breach contract. you get fired or possibly sued for damages or breach of contract (as a contractor or external consultant). The job market isn't exactly great for recently fired engineers either. Nobody is above the law, and it is more than likely that some unlucky 'git-blamed' junior is going to face such a case some day instead of the bo…

Agreed. I dislike how every time we push for the "hot market for programmers" meme that only exists in the SV-like bubbles.

Everywhere else around the world, it's just a regular job people do to put food on the table.

Should we boycott people who work in the defense industry as well?

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