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France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

reuters.com

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Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#141

Post by azr79 »

aazaa wrote: post #27

> “no private entity can claim monetary power, which is inherent to the sovereignty of nations” What a bizarre statement. Providing for security is also inherent to sovereignty of nations, but private security firms flourish. It's also odd in the context of Germany in particular where a private currency has been used for many years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemgauer I suspect there's a lot more behind this sta…

> but private security firms flourish.

not in EU they don't

also firms like Securitas mostly provide security services to enterprises, and gouvernements sites, not to citizens.

bad comparison example

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#142

Post by orbifold »

wslh wrote: post #118

I think the trend of demonopolizing currencies is unstoppable, just take time. I argue that this can be part of a new cold war dimension between countries and when some countries block financial initiatives others fund an opportunity. I wrote a little bit more about this vision in [1]. [1] https://blog.coinfabrik.com/libra-association-a-menace-and-a...

Nothing is unstoppable, nation states have militaries and intelligence services. Both can be very persuasive. Facebook is paying close to no taxes in the EU, so noone here has anything to lose from them simply disappearing.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#143

Post by 50656E6973 »

logicchains wrote: post #89
grezql wrote: post #3

I wish they just blocked facebook altogether. It has caused people more pain than good

Citation needed? Most people I know happily use it to communicate and post funny (or at least trying to be funny) posts, or are older people who post lots of family pictures. The views of people on Hackernews don't seem very representative of those of the general population, maybe because hating on Facebook is an excellent excuse for people to feel superior to the general population. "I know better than those ignoran…

>hating on Facebook is an excellent excuse for people to feel superior to the general population. "I know better than those ignorant proles, I wish they'd do what I think is best for them instead of what they want to do."

Ironic; that's the same ethos being espoused and implemented by those who run Facebook.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#144

Post by benj111 »

aazaa wrote: post #27

> “no private entity can claim monetary power, which is inherent to the sovereignty of nations” What a bizarre statement. Providing for security is also inherent to sovereignty of nations, but private security firms flourish. It's also odd in the context of Germany in particular where a private currency has been used for many years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemgauer I suspect there's a lot more behind this sta…

"Providing for security is also inherent to sovereignty of nations, but private security firms flourish"

Security for a nation state is different to a security guard standing in a shop. Also I'm quite sure that nation states reserve the right to claim a monopoly on certain parts of the security industry. The monetary/security power is in being able to claim that monopoly, as your currency example shows, the nation state can allow certain behaviours, that doesn't mean it has to allow everything.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#145

Post by mrtksn »

_r_o_y_ wrote: post #123
mrtksn wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing a chicken is very different from using something. Stealing chicken is no doubt immoral for most people but punishing the usage of something that Americans can use will not fly unless the USA becomes the arch-enemy and using Libra is perceived as treason and way or unfair enrichment. Stealing a chicken has a clearly defined victim and stealing, not even piracy or patent infringement is well understood and uni…

Tell that to all the people in jail for smoking weed.

Why? Lot's of people are sympathetic towards them, that's why it's no longer illegal in many countries.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#146

Post by orbifold »

mrtksn wrote: post #46
freddie_mercury wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you think this is so hard? You pass a law. Most people don't break the law. You make it illegal for banks to transfer to known Libra things. You audit people. You apply big fines. Murder is illegal but that doesn't mean nobody can commit murder .

If Libra becomes a thing, I would guess people will start selling things with it and Europeans will sell their services with Libra if Americans ell their services with Libra. Maybe in Germany, most people will stay away from it but in Bulgaria, Spain, Italy etc. - in places where people are more "relaxed" about the law enforcement will not miss business opportunities just because their rich neighbours can afford to m…

Just require people to provide a valid ID to Facebook in order to use it. Shouldn't be too hard to enfore, at least in the EU your phone number is tied to your passport.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#147

Post by gjulianm »

kerng wrote: post #124
aniforprez wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AH the bit about the goal being to make payments fast makes a ton of sense. The rest of the world has left the US in the dust with extremely fast payments systems. In India, the UPI system has taken the country by storm with direct,instant bank-to-bank money transfers which take seconds to complete and have no fees attached for the consumer

Things like Venmo are popular in US to quickly send money here and there (not like bank transfers afaik). It's not available in Europe unfortunately.

At least in Spain there are some bank-sponsored apps (e.g. Bizum) that can be used to send money to people using their phone number as ID (if they have also an account in the system), and it's instantaneous. I think other European countries have similar systems.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#148

Post by tannhaeuser »

pjc50 wrote: post #42
baxtr wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PayPal?

Not really a bank-to-bank system; money doesn't instantly arrive at the recipient's bank account and paypal's ability to withhold it is notorious.

Nor is PayPal obliged to pay into deposit protection funds as EU banks are AFAIK. I think PayPal needs to start worrying about their standing in EU and becoming a collateral damage when France and Germany are on a roll to make a case for exercising currency sovereignty.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#149

Post by cj »

logicchains wrote: post #89
grezql wrote: post #3

I wish they just blocked facebook altogether. It has caused people more pain than good

Citation needed? Most people I know happily use it to communicate and post funny (or at least trying to be funny) posts, or are older people who post lots of family pictures. The views of people on Hackernews don't seem very representative of those of the general population, maybe because hating on Facebook is an excellent excuse for people to feel superior to the general population. "I know better than those ignoran…

Since you disagree with the parent and are claiming the opposite as him (also without a citation), I decided to Google around for some actual data.

Here are some findings from a NBC/WSJ poll [0]...

> 57 percent of Americans say they agree with the statement that social media sites like Facebook and Twitter do more to divide the country

> Fifty-five percent believe social media does more to spread lies and falsehoods, versus 31 percent who say it does more to spread news and information

> Sixty-one percent think social media does more to spread unfair attacks and rumors against public figures and corporations, compared with 32 percent who say it does more to hold those public figures and corporations accountable.

> 82 percent say social media sites do more to waste people’s time, versus 15 percent who say they do more to use Americans’ time well.

> 60 percent saying they don’t trust the company at all to protect personal information

> 36 percent of adults view Facebook positively, while 33 percent see it negatively. And Twitter’s rating is 24 percent positive, 27 percent negative.

[0] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5794861-19093-NBCWSJ...

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#150

Post by orbifold »

sergefaguet wrote: post #63

nations also used to be convinced it is inherent to their sovereignty to tell us who to worship and who to marry. this is no longer the case. not sure there is a principled reason why the power to govern the exchange of goods and services (which is what money facilitates) should be up to them.

As a German citizen I'm really glad they are doing this. I would be horrified if they let our monetary sovereignty slip out of their hands.
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