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It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

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61–70 of 128 posts

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#61
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole thing is about RMS defending child rape on the basis that legal age limits are stupid and that it’s not rape if the child is willing. If you managed to miss all that then maybe try again.

If you could kindly point me to the passage where Stallman talks about rape, I would be much obliged.

“...the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing.”

The context is an underage sex slave. Having sex with her is rape by definition in two different ways.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#62
post #45
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To imagine a scenario, sure. I can imagine plenty of scenarios. Epstein liked to film his visitors and use the material to blackmail them. Knowing that, it's not unreasonable to assume that he ordered his slaves to behave nice and inviting. You should be very careful about drawing lines between what you can and can't think. Once you do that, it doesn't really matter if you call it Religion or Science; you're still ho…

He’s not just imagining a scenario. He’s saying that this is the most likely scenario, and that the fact that she presented as willing makes everything totally cool.

> totally cool

I didnt read that in the email thread. Human trafficked sex slaves appearing willing to Minsky does not mean everything is totally cool.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#63
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hypothetical is used to argue that the phrase "sexual assault" has the wrong connotations, not that it was "totally fine". It's you who keeps adding this "totally fine" part. The biggest problem I can see here is that Stallman should have posted it on his blog if he wrote it at all, not blasted it out to everyone on that mailing list. That was definitely the wrong thing to do as it's basically picking a fight wit…

If it’s not “sexual assault” then what is wrong about it?

What is wrong about it is that Epstein is running a child sex trafficking ring. It's not clear what Minsky knew.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#64
post #38

I didn't read this as RMS minimizing sex trafficking or defending rapists. I read it as him making an inappropriate argument about semantics in entirely the wrong place. These are very different things, and it seems like many people, including the author of that Medium article, really want it to be the first instead of the second.

How old is this man? He's not stupid. He knows what he's doing. What a cop out to say "no he was just really hung up about grammar. "

He's autistic and he probably has trouble with communication. He might not know that it's a terrible idea to quibble about why his preferred definition of assault is better than the commonly accepted and used definition.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#65
post #62
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s not just imagining a scenario. He’s saying that this is the most likely scenario, and that the fact that she presented as willing makes everything totally cool.

> totally cool I didnt read that in the email thread. Human trafficked sex slaves appearing willing to Minsky does not mean everything is totally cool.

He keeps saying it shouldn’t qualify as sexual assault or rape. If it’s not that then what is it?

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#66
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s not “sexual assault” then what is wrong about it?

What is wrong about it is that Epstein is running a child sex trafficking ring. It's not clear what Minsky knew.

Best case scenario for Minsky, if he did have sex with this girl, is that he was tricked into raping her.

But RMS isn’t going with that. He’s going with “not rape.”

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#67

The salient point is that free software is a movement consisting of many individuals with their own viewpoints. If you want to support free software without endorsing the behavior of this man then donate your time, money, attention, to a different free software organization. There are a lot of them [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_and_open-source_s...

[deleted]

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#68
post #10

I grow more and more tired of these discussions. Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. Conferences are getting shut down, people are having their world turned upside down for being ignorant. Every topic is a hot potato. I feel i can’t even have a reasonable conversation about diversity, ignorance, or whatever the controversy of the day is. It’s easier to just be quiet than express opinions…

>I feel i can’t even have a reasonable conversation about diversity, ignorance, or whatever the controversy of the day is. Conform, or else. I mean, I don't agree with what rms said, and I think sexual degenerates should be shot in the head, but Jesus, what the fuck do I care about his stance on politics. It's not my fucking problem.

"I don't care about his stance on politics but I think he should be shot in the head" is one hell of a take.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#69
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they only work on commercial software projects because of Richard Stallman?

Yes. They concluded that working in communities that wouldn't tolerate people like RMS was more important than working on free software.

This is a disingenuous argument.

I work on some free software projects and most people don't even know who RMS is. There are multiple Free/Open Source software associations, projects and communities to choose, all with different people working on them, some of them don't tolerate such behavior.

If none of those fit, people can just create their own and choose who to associate with.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#70
post #58
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally know high quality developers who only work on free software projects because of Stallman. I’m not sure how valuable these baseless anecdotes are to the conversation and is one of the reasons why I try to argue on principles. I’m optimistic that you brought up principles as well as I think it’s important to judge developers based on the quality of their code rather than how popular they are.

The popularity of a developer is certainly not a reason to judge them in itself. But the reasons for that developer's popularity are. Is that developer popular because they provide empathetic feedback to other developers? Is that developer popular because they help other project members think about the goals of the project in useful ways? Is that developer popular because they make it easier for others to involve the…

I agree with you. I was trying to communicate that we should evaluate based on the underlying value rather than surface characteristics. Hopefully a great developer will also be popular (because of impact) but not necessarily. I frequently try to remind myself that I should assume value based on popularity.

Good software isn’t a democracy. Democracy is great for things that are arbitrary, but sucks for things where there’s objective value. I don’t want my surgeon taking a vote on how to proceed while I’m on the table.

However, that doesn’t mean democratic principles have no place. Consensus, discussion, collaboration are all important. But not to the exclusion of skill and responsibility. While I don’t want my surgeon taking a vote that includes the orderly and electrician who happen to be in the room, I hope that they solicit input and consider opinions from others before they decide on the course of action.

I also don’t know of a way to compare individuals for their value and think it’s a waste of effort to do so. People who encourage facilitation are awesome and I think frequently projects can do better with a fun person who attracts participation rather than some hard core coder who pisses everyone off. But not as an absolute rule. I’ve worked on projects with wonderful cheerleaders that never produced anything because they were all happiness and tons of people, but no one actually doing work.

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