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It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

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Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#41

Post by xkapastel »

Jonnax wrote: post #38
xkapastel wrote: post #31

I didn't read this as RMS minimizing sex trafficking or defending rapists. I read it as him making an inappropriate argument about semantics in entirely the wrong place. These are very different things, and it seems like many people, including the author of that Medium article, really want it to be the first instead of the second.

How old is this man? He's not stupid. He knows what he's doing. What a cop out to say "no he was just really hung up about grammar. "

Not grammar, the connotations of the phrase "sexual assault". I don't think it's a cop out, I think it's clearly literally the case.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#42

Post by interfixus »

mikeash wrote: post #39
interfixus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which - to the best of my knowledge - Stallman has never defended.

Maybe read the link about which we are all talking.

A less condescending tone would be appreciated. I read that article - and formed certain opinions about it - long before it was posted to HN.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#43

Post by deanclatworthy »

Jonnax wrote: post #14
deanclatworthy wrote: post #5

I grow more and more tired of these discussions. Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. Conferences are getting shut down, people are having their world turned upside down for being ignorant. Every topic is a hot potato. I feel i can’t even have a reasonable conversation about diversity, ignorance, or whatever the controversy of the day is. It’s easier to just be quiet than express opinions…

Why can't you have a reasonable discussion? Stallman emailed a big mailing list for a computer science department the following about a child sex trafficking victim: "The reference reports the claim that Minsky had sex with one of Epstein’s harem…Let’s presume that was true (I see no reason to disbelieve it). ... We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as en…

So it's a binary decision is it? It's either acceptable or not? Does every argument have to be reduced to for or against?

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#44

Post by Jonnax »

codr7 wrote: post #32
Jonnax wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So he uses his own brain to advocate for the "elite" and that's somehow admirable.

That sounds very unlikely to me, and would need to be backed up by solid proof. I think you need to take a chill pill and figure out where all the hate is coming from.

Solid proof? The emails he sent to the mailing list is the proof.

What hate exactly? It seems there's plenty of people even on this site defending him.

Could explain what you're implying that I'm missing?

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#45

Post by mikeash »

codr7 wrote: post #28
Jonnax wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't you have a reasonable discussion? Stallman emailed a big mailing list for a computer science department the following about a child sex trafficking victim: "The reference reports the claim that Minsky had sex with one of Epstein’s harem…Let’s presume that was true (I see no reason to disbelieve it). ... We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as en…

To imagine a scenario, sure. I can imagine plenty of scenarios. Epstein liked to film his visitors and use the material to blackmail them. Knowing that, it's not unreasonable to assume that he ordered his slaves to behave nice and inviting. You should be very careful about drawing lines between what you can and can't think. Once you do that, it doesn't really matter if you call it Religion or Science; you're still ho…

He’s not just imagining a scenario. He’s saying that this is the most likely scenario, and that the fact that she presented as willing makes everything totally cool.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#46

Post by interfixus »

shagie wrote: post #37
interfixus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which - to the best of my knowledge - Stallman has never defended.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-sci... has a redacted email thread.

For those who might prefer unredacted, here's what Stallman is reported to have said:

"The word “assaulting” presumes that he applied force or violence, in some unspecified way, but the article itself says no such thing.Only that they had sex. We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates."

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#47

Post by mikeash »

interfixus wrote: post #42
mikeash wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe read the link about which we are all talking.

A less condescending tone would be appreciated. I read that article - and formed certain opinions about it - long before it was posted to HN.

The whole thing is about RMS defending child rape on the basis that legal age limits are stupid and that it’s not rape if the child is willing. If you managed to miss all that then maybe try again.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#48

Post by xkapastel »

mikeash wrote: post #40
xkapastel wrote: post #31

I didn't read this as RMS minimizing sex trafficking or defending rapists. I read it as him making an inappropriate argument about semantics in entirely the wrong place. These are very different things, and it seems like many people, including the author of that Medium article, really want it to be the first instead of the second.

“...the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing.”

Do you think it's more plausible that she'd present as being in distress?

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#49

Post by prepend »

mjg59 wrote: post #30
rubbingalcohol wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who run away from something when their feelings get hurt are no great loss to whatever "movement" they're too weak to contribute to. Free Software has much bigger problems than these losers.

I personally know high quality developers who refuse to work on free software projects because of Stallman. It's not a matter of weakness, it's a matter of principle.

I personally know high quality developers who only work on free software projects because of Stallman.

I’m not sure how valuable these baseless anecdotes are to the conversation and is one of the reasons why I try to argue on principles.

I’m optimistic that you brought up principles as well as I think it’s important to judge developers based on the quality of their code rather than how popular they are.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#50

Post by mikeash »

xkapastel wrote: post #48
mikeash wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“...the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing.”

Do you think it's more plausible that she'd present as being in distress?

That’s not the issue. The issue is that this hypothetical is used to argue that having sex with her was totally fine.
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