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Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

politico.com

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Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#331

Post by amitport »

tracer4201 wrote: post #330
flyinglizard wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Americans care deeply about Israel. What’s wrong with that?

I am not sure how true that is more recently, at least in more liberal circles, although that is really besides the point. I can criticize the American government and insult my president, and that’s generally more tolerable (although people may disagree) than criticizing the government of Israel. You won’t be jailed but your reputation will be tarnished because the narrative has been that not supporting Israel 100% u…

You can disagree and criticise as long as you're not making antisemite claims. If you can't tell where this line stands you’re probably part of the problem.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#332

Post by drak0n1c »

amitport wrote: post #290
drak0n1c wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of R&D - Israel develops military research far cheaper than the US military industrial complex charges, and the results are shared back with the US. Some examples are the Iron Dome missile defense system, Predator Drones, Stuxnet, and early cell phone technology.

Stuxnet? Any references?

Here is an overview. There are many news articles and even documentaries on its origins. https://www.csoonline.com/article/3218104/what-is-stuxnet-wh...

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#333

Post by pnongrata »

amitport wrote: post #316
pnongrata wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really should look into the Promis scandal, on how historically Intelligence agencies have used shady private entities in order to avoid public scrutiny. It's very didatic.

Yes. Shit happened in the world. There were actual conspiracies. That is not to say that everything that can't be disproven is true. (You're suggesting guilty until proven innocence logic) (You are welcome to worship the flying spaghetti monster until you can disprove its existence)

I was pointing to an actual case of state intelligence working with private entities to achieve shady goals. It is well documented, not a "conspiracy". You are simply refusing to read the material I have already provided and indicated (as in the Promis "incident"). Try reading the article and checking its sources before making snarky remarks.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#334

Post by amitport »

pnongrata wrote: post #333
amitport wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Shit happened in the world. There were actual conspiracies. That is not to say that everything that can't be disproven is true. (You're suggesting guilty until proven innocence logic) (You are welcome to worship the flying spaghetti monster until you can disprove its existence)

I was pointing to an actual case of state intelligence working with private entities to achieve shady goals. It is well documented, not a "conspiracy". You are simply refusing to read the material I have already provided and indicated (as in the Promis "incident"). Try reading the article and checking its sources before making snarky remarks.

You should reread the thread. I never said that things like that could never happen. Just that there is no reason to believe that that's what happened now.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#335

Post by writepub »

wahern wrote: post #291
writepub wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of the attempt here at painting a country's foreign policy as partisan, any given country favors one U.S. party over the other. Right now, China probably favors a Democrat led government, so does Iran. The U.S. probably favors one Israeli party over the other. Your entire issue with this is likely because you perceive Israeli spying to oppose your political party. On those lines, would you classify Chinese…

Because you managed to get under my skin, I'll give you some freebies: 2004: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-sep-03-na-spypr... 2008: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-spy-who... Notice the thread: Israel is uniquely aggressive, especially as an ally. This article is full of innuendo and conjecture (they say this up front), but provides insight into the complex web of business and inte…

> Because you managed to get under my skin...

I'm not betting on the remainder of your comment being objective. In 2019 if someone can get under your skin by just politely asking for evidence, maybe just maybe, you aren't engaging objectively.

Nonetheless, while there is some evidence pointing to aggressive spying by the Israelis, if you disconnect it from the context of what the U.S. does in Israel, the suggestions of favoritism seem disingenuous.

Most of all, there's no real evidence that 3-letter agencies and career state department employees, who largely handle domestic and international spying, would undermine U.S. interests, regardless of who is in the White House.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#336

Post by remarkEon »

chimi wrote: post #329
remarkEon wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To you.

You're speaking from the perspective of a theaticlastic denomination, so it's hard for you to accept another perspective. You have an idea in your mind and it makes sense to you, but you can't explain it or define it. You're saying it is because it is. It's that way because it's that way and because I believe something, it proves it is that way. But my belief could be held by someone in a completely different nation…

You’re right, I did try to Kafkatrap you there.

But again I’m not interested in debating open borders on the merits because I’ve been to plenty of places that are ... not nice and not having a border between us and them is a recipe for Civilizational collapse.

>theaticlastic

Never encountered this word before.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#337

Post by thefringthing »

scottlocklin wrote: post #162

It's not like the Israelis haven't done this before and not paid any consequences for it. 2000: https://www.wrmea.org/000-june/despite-coverup-israel-caught... 2015 caught greasing politicians: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-spy-net-on-israel-snares-co... 2011: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/us/08spy.html 2015: https://theintercept.com/2015/03/25/netanyahus-spying-denial... 2014: https://www.newsweek.com/israel…

All currently nuclear armed nations are in violation of the NPT, so...

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#338

Post by tracer4201 »

amitport wrote: post #331
tracer4201 wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure how true that is more recently, at least in more liberal circles, although that is really besides the point. I can criticize the American government and insult my president, and that’s generally more tolerable (although people may disagree) than criticizing the government of Israel. You won’t be jailed but your reputation will be tarnished because the narrative has been that not supporting Israel 100% u…

You can disagree and criticise as long as you're not making antisemite claims. If you can't tell where this line stands you’re probably part of the problem.

Your first statement is inaccurate, and your second statement tries to reword something I said earlier but is written as a direct personal attack. Your other post already got flagged, but you just don’t stop.

In general, anyone who speaks against Israel policies is ridiculed as an anti Semite. Your post and your personal attacks are once more trying to control the discussion.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#339

Post by amitport »

tracer4201 wrote: post #338
amitport wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can disagree and criticise as long as you're not making antisemite claims. If you can't tell where this line stands you’re probably part of the problem.

Your first statement is inaccurate, and your second statement tries to reword something I said earlier but is written as a direct personal attack. Your other post already got flagged, but you just don’t stop. In general, anyone who speaks against Israel policies is ridiculed as an anti Semite. Your post and your personal attacks are once more trying to control the discussion.

"In general, anyone who speaks against Israel policies is ridiculed as an anti Semite"

This is false. It's amazing that people actually think that when in practice many American politicians from all sides (including aipac itself) often speak against Israel.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#340

Post by tracer4201 »

amitport wrote: post #339
tracer4201 wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first statement is inaccurate, and your second statement tries to reword something I said earlier but is written as a direct personal attack. Your other post already got flagged, but you just don’t stop. In general, anyone who speaks against Israel policies is ridiculed as an anti Semite. Your post and your personal attacks are once more trying to control the discussion.

"In general, anyone who speaks against Israel policies is ridiculed as an anti Semite" This is false. It's amazing that people actually think that when in practice many American politicians from all sides (including aipac itself) often speak against Israel.

No, it’s not false. AIPAC may have spoken against something very specific Israel did (such as denying American congresswomen entry) but in general, they and the Israeli lobby strong arm any opponents of Israeli policy.
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