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Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

politico.com

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Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#161

Post by Faark »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #147
habnds wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the reputation of a publication a legitimate part of evaluating an article? Your attitude seems very close to a position that we can never truly know anything.

No, GP's position seems to be closer to "actually being sure about something requires more evidence than has been given".

To me it feels more like "more evidence can ever realistically be available, especially on intelligence operations, thus i can just ignore articles with content I don't like". Especially the attack on reputation worries me, since this is pretty much the only thing left to go on for average humans without unlimited time.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#162

Post by scottlocklin »

It's not like the Israelis haven't done this before and not paid any consequences for it.

2000: https://www.wrmea.org/000-june/despite-coverup-israel-caught...

2015 caught greasing politicians: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-spy-net-on-israel-snares-co...

2011: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/us/08spy.html

2015: https://theintercept.com/2015/03/25/netanyahus-spying-denial...

2014: https://www.newsweek.com/israels-aggressive-spying-us-mostly...

1999: https://nypost.com/1999/03/03/israel-blackmailed-bill-with-m...

2019: https://thebulletin.org/2019/02/trained-in-israeli-intellige...

2018: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israeli-firm-bl...

2018: https://www.thenation.com/article/how-israel-spies-on-us-cit...

First page of a google search on "Israel spying on US" excluding last few weeks.

This one's my favorite though: Netanyahu and some Hollywood freak were apparently involved in stealing atomb bomb triggers from the US:

https://mondoweiss.net/2012/07/netanyahu-implicated-in-nucle...

I mean, they're in non compliance with the NPT, so they shouldn't receive any foreign aid, but good luck on that.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#163

Post by habnds »

Faark wrote: post #161
TeMPOraL wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, GP's position seems to be closer to "actually being sure about something requires more evidence than has been given".

To me it feels more like " more evidence can ever realistically be available, especially on intelligence operations, thus i can just ignore articles with content I don't like ". Especially the attack on reputation worries me, since this is pretty much the only thing left to go on for average humans without unlimited time.

right, at best it's crippling. At worst it becomes a device for dismissing any news that is inconsistent with one's worldview. "That probably isn't even true."

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#164

Post by habnds »

mistermann wrote: post #136
habnds wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I don't understand you. Exactly which sentence is presenting an opinion as a fact? I don't think they do so.

> “The reaction ... WAS very different than it WOULD HAVE BEEN in the last administration,” this person said. “With the current administration, there ARE a different set of calculations in regard to addressing THIS.” > The former senior intelligence official criticized how the administration handled the matter, remarking on the striking difference from past administrations, which LIKELY would have at a very minimum i…

The article isn't saying that. It's in quotes becuase they are reporting the words of someone they've deemed to be a reputable source for the topic of standard administration behavior.

You may have an issue with that source's opinion, but that's different from having an issue with Politico.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#165

Post by habnds »

mistermann wrote: post #136
habnds wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I don't understand you. Exactly which sentence is presenting an opinion as a fact? I don't think they do so.

> “The reaction ... WAS very different than it WOULD HAVE BEEN in the last administration,” this person said. “With the current administration, there ARE a different set of calculations in regard to addressing THIS.” > The former senior intelligence official criticized how the administration handled the matter, remarking on the striking difference from past administrations, which LIKELY would have at a very minimum i…

I think you're putting the burden of someone interpreting an article correctly (in your subjective assessment of what is correct) on the news source.

Where I disagree is that I think it's the job of each of us as consumers of news to do the work of critically assessing what we read.

I don't think its about fixing the news, because I don't think thats possible. I think we need to focus on improving people's relationship with the news.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#166

Post by bGriz »

guelo wrote: post #94
tryitnow wrote: post #82

If this is true can you blame the Israeli government? The US has an incredibly volatile, unpredictable president. Israel is a country surrounded by states that are openly hostile and the continued survival of Israel depends, in part, on the behavior of the US. I would be disappointed if Israel wasn't doing something like this. And I'm willing to bet the US government does this sort of stuff all over the world, includ…

Yes I can blame them. Get the fuck out of my country. And stop buying my politicians.

> Get the fuck out of my country.

Not going to get anything done saying that.

> And stop buying my politicians.

Lobbying reform is an option to improve the situation you're highlighting.

https://www.citizen.org/article/lobbying-reform/

And to be more specific, you may be concerned about the AIPAC lobby, among others.

https://www.aipac.org/

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#167

Post by domnomnom »

docdeek wrote: post #130
tracer4201 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s unfortunate we would rely on either of these countries to be our eyes and ears. Both are corrupt. Saudi appears worst to us in the west because their daily way of life isn’t so compatible with western values, especially with respect to religion in government (or freedom of, rather) and general human rights and women’s rights. Israel appears to be democratic but discriminates heavily and are also driven to a grea…

Accepting your premise, is there a non-corrupt alternative in the region?

Iran of course.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#168

Post by wahern »

2019:

> An Israeli Embassy spokesperson, Elad Strohmayer, denied that Israel placed the devices and said: “These allegations are absolute nonsense. Israel doesn’t conduct espionage operations in the United States, period.”

2014 (https://www.newsweek.com/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757):

> Aaron Sagui told Newsweek "Israel doesn't conduct espionage operations in the United States, period. We condemn the fact that such outrageous, false allegations are being directed against Israel."

I have to say, placing stingrays around D.C. is pretty bold, but not exactly surprising. It's not even an open secret that Israel aggressively spies in the U.S.; it just is what it is, I guess.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#169

Post by drak0n1c »

endtime wrote: post #50
SuoDuanDao wrote: post #28

What does the US get out of the special relationship with Israel? Anti-Israel sources mostly talk about the strong Jewish lobbies, while pro-Israel sources mostly cite being the only democracy in the region. Both seem misleading at best. What's the US's argument from self-interest for tolerating this kind of thing?

* An excuse to subsidize the US defence industry * Improvements to US military technology (Israel tweaks stuff and then we use their tweaks) * Anti-terrorism training and expertise (we started caring a lot more in 2001; they've been dealing with it longer than that) * A liberal democracy in a part of the world without any others (whether or not you value this is up to you, but many Americans do) * Intelligence * A lo…

In terms of R&D - Israel develops military research far cheaper than the US military industrial complex charges, and the results are shared back with the US. Some examples are the Iron Dome missile defense system, Predator Drones, Stuxnet, and early cell phone technology.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#170

Post by corey_moncure »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #93
deathhand wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaks have shown that with the 5 eyes 'one hand washes another' and probably spying on US citizens on behest of the US.

Israel isn’t part of five eyes.

True but I don't think it refutes GP's central point.

The intelligence community has their hands tied when it comes to their own citizens due to strong constitutional protections, so in order to get what they desire, they operate quasi-extrajudicially (i.e. exploit a loophole) where they just get a friendly foreign power to do the spying and then trade intelligence for intelligence on their own citizens. I'm pretty sure this kind of scheme is behind GP's post and such an arrangement is not limited to members of the five eyes.

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