Americans are no lesser, they have spies too.
Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House
311–320 of 346 posts
Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House
#312Earlier quoted context omitted.
Isn't that a bit like asking why HTTPS would ever be implemented, and saying that the vast majority of users don't care about internet privacy, and law enforcement would very much prefer we don't use encryption? The reason I see it being implemented is to prevent StingRay from being a thing.
The barriers to entry for building HTTPS software are a lot lower than building out cellular infrastructure. For HTTPS you have a lot of altruistic people and companies, like letsencrypt and Mozilla willing to give some resources to make HTTPS everywhere possible. There really isn’t a similar entity in the cellular carrier world. Trying to start something new tomorrow that is more secure would take a huge investment…
> The barriers to entry for building HTTPS software are a lot lower than building out cellular infrastructure.
Why assume extra cell security would be a hardware build-out? Surely all towers in existence can get remote firmware upgrades, the same way all of todays routers can?
> For HTTPS you have a lot of altruistic people and companies, like letsencrypt and Mozilla willing to give some resources to make HTTPS everywhere possible.
That seems true in retrospect, but there was lots resistance to, and futility thinking about HTTPS before it happened, I remember it, I was there. It only seems like there are altruistic people helping now that it basically is everywhere and now that it’s easy & cheap to do, and everyone knows it’s a good idea.
> So unless the government mandates it
Agreed that’s unlikely to happen, but it doesn’t seem like a real barrier to me. Maybe GDPR or Europe will take the lead on this one too. But very little of the security & privacy we have in the US has ever come from a government mandate, yet we do have some. HTTPS wasn’t a government mandate. They didn’t oppose it either, possibly because they have keys and/or cooperative ISPs, but they sure didn’t do anything to push it forward.
> I just don’t see how given where we are today.
Public awareness about the issue for one. Rather than saying it’s futile and will probably never happen, talking to your friends and family about it will help. Though we have a super long way to go, improvements in privacy do tend to happen once the public truly understands how they’re being spied on. Privacy pushes by Apple and Google could make it happen. Even Apple alone might be able to make it happen, and they’re currently on the side of privacy. It might also unfortunately take more widely reported cases of StingRay before people perk up to this issue.
Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House
#313Earlier quoted context omitted.
You do realise that radical Islamist don't actually control any of the countries around Israel right? Or pretty much any country at all. If anything US is allies with some worst ones in terms of supporting radical extremism. But don't let facts get in the way of your propaganda.
There was a brief period when the Muslim Brotherhood controlled Egypt. Hezbullah controls a big chunk of southern Lebanon. Hamas controls Gaza. Maybe the facts are getting in the way of your point a little...
> There was a brief period when the Muslim Brotherhood controlled Egypt.
In the thats in the past. However they didn't break the peace agreement with Israel.
> Hamas controls Gaza
Gaza is not a country.
> Hezbullah controls a big chunk of southern Lebanon.
True on that but without Israel there Hezbollah would have little reason to oppose the US.
At the same time the reality is that Syria is militarly over, Jordan has made peace, Saudi Arabia and the UAE are basically allies, Turkey has no interest in attacking Israel, Egypt is incapable of true forign policy at the moment.
So we have basically all major powers, and Hezbullah.
Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House
#314Earlier quoted context omitted.
While I appreciate law enforcement wanting to do it's job, there's zero technical reason to require compromised privacy and/or protocols that allow for malicious third parties to impersonate legitimate service providers, right? There is no reason that the phone can't first check that the tower is legitimate before providing identity, and that the tower then checks whether the phone is legitimate before providing any…
But LEA are the ones setting up the illegitimate “towers”. It’s not about them keeping you safe from scary black hats, it’s about them being able to use them without hurdles to jump over. And as far as the carriers are concerned most of the public doesn’t care, LE is happy and they don’t have to spend money upgrading anything.
I’m not suggesting something that will stop law enforcement at all, I am suggesting something that will prevent your phone from connecting to any random device that any person anywhere can drop under a bush.
> But LEA are the ones setting up the illegitimate “towers”.
The article said it’s a foreign government, Israel, spying on lawmakers, not U.S. law enforcement. You are suggesting the StingRays are ours and not black hats?
> as far as the carriers are concerns most of the public doesn’t care, LE is happy
That’s because they haven’t heard from the public on this issue, nobody’s complaining because nobody knows. As soon as they do hear about it, they will realize the public cares. This is why public awareness of the lack of security in our current cellular setup is important.
Law enforcement is a non-argument in my opinion. Of course they want it easy, but we do not have to make it easy. Many of the safety measures we currently enjoy happened despite law enforcement’s complaints, including device locking and encryption.
And, like I said before, I believe they can get what they want with little to no effort and continue to spy on us without forcing the public to lose privacy to Israeli or Russian or Chinese or even your local neighborhood black hats.
Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House
#315Earlier quoted context omitted.
Completely sure it is not "illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement."
> Completely sure it not "illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement." “A candidates' list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset, and a person shall not be a candidate for election to the Knesset, if the objects or actions of the list or the actions of the person, expressly or by implication, include one of the following: “1. negation of the existence of the S…
A party with an objective "negating the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state" is not the same as voicing disagreement. Almost half of the Knesset voted against 'Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People' basic law, and many regularly voice disagreement with this definition.
Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House
#316Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you have any reason to believe that intelligence agencies are involved in the cases mentioned? Why would they? Please cite. Former workers are sometimes just that.
You really should look into the Promis scandal, on how historically Intelligence agencies have used shady private entities in order to avoid public scrutiny. It's very didatic.
Yes. Shit happened in the world. There were actual conspiracies. That is not to say that everything that can't be disproven is true.
(You're suggesting guilty until proven innocence logic) (You are welcome to worship the flying spaghetti monster until you can disprove its existence)
Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House
#317Earlier quoted context omitted.
But LEA are the ones setting up the illegitimate “towers”. It’s not about them keeping you safe from scary black hats, it’s about them being able to use them without hurdles to jump over. And as far as the carriers are concerned most of the public doesn’t care, LE is happy and they don’t have to spend money upgrading anything.
I’m not suggesting something that will stop law enforcement at all, I am suggesting something that will prevent your phone from connecting to any random device that any person anywhere can drop under a bush. > But LEA are the ones setting up the illegitimate “towers”. The article said it’s a foreign government, Israel, spying on lawmakers, not U.S. law enforcement. You are suggesting the StingRays are ours and not bl…
The article said it’s a foreign government, Israel, spying on lawmakers, not U.S. law enforcement. You are suggesting the StingRays are ours and not black hats?
I'm saying how is your device able to distinguish between the two? As in if they lock down the towers then they are effectively preventing you from connecting to StingRays as well.
And, hey, I agree with you, I'd love to see some regulation that forced the hands of the carriers. And maybe more people would care if they knew. But I'm skeptical in this day and age where everyone seems willing to give away everything about themselves in exchange for some convenience and entertainment.
Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House
#318Earlier quoted context omitted.
The barriers to entry for building HTTPS software are a lot lower than building out cellular infrastructure. For HTTPS you have a lot of altruistic people and companies, like letsencrypt and Mozilla willing to give some resources to make HTTPS everywhere possible. There really isn’t a similar entity in the cellular carrier world. Trying to start something new tomorrow that is more secure would take a huge investment…
> The barriers to entry for building HTTPS software are a lot lower than building out cellular infrastructure. Why assume extra cell security would be a hardware build-out? Surely all towers in existence can get remote firmware upgrades, the same way all of todays routers can? > For HTTPS you have a lot of altruistic people and companies, like letsencrypt and Mozilla willing to give some resources to make HTTPS every…
True, firmware updates are a possible upgrade path, I don't know much about cellular hardware so I can't speak to what capabilities can be added that way.
I agree about public awareness but if I'm pessimistic it's because I do talk to my friends and family about it and they all think I'm just paranoid. :-)
They just can't understand why I don't have a FB account, don't use iCloud or Google Docs. Everyone uses it, they say, how could it be bad if everyone is using it? Granted having phone calls spied on might get their attention a bit more but I still get an attitude from people like "I'm not doing anything wrong, why would they ever listen to or track me?".
Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House
#319Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Completely sure it not "illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement." “A candidates' list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset, and a person shall not be a candidate for election to the Knesset, if the objects or actions of the list or the actions of the person, expressly or by implication, include one of the following: “1. negation of the existence of the S…
A party with an objective "negating the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state " is not the same as voicing disagreement. Almost half of the Knesset voted against 'Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People' basic law, and many regularly voice disagreement with this definition.
When you can arbitrarly define who is part of that democratic state and who is not, it is not democracy. The Palestinans are living under the control of the Jewish state and they have no right to vote.
Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House
#320Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Really, pretty sure its a Jewish state. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel would agree with me. Pretty sure the leaders of Israel have made it illegal, and the grounds for exclusion from the Knesset, to disagree with that statement. But it's not accepted to point out that Israel is a distinctly illiberal state by it's overt, foundational policy.
During Israel's founding everyone who was an established resident in the territories was eligible for and offered first-class citizenship in the new state. Local Muslims and Christians who opted-in have enjoyed more prosperity and political representation over the decades than any of Israel's neighbors. Many minorities serve as leaders in the government, military, and private industry. Israel's neighbors were the one…
Yes the other arab states were morrons but there are millions of Palestinians living under Israeli control who not only lose their access to resources but also have no democratic representation at all.