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Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

politico.com

281–290 of 346 posts

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#281
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Much of their spying on the USA is not to harm the USA, but to ensure the USA is still on their side. I don't think they want to hurt the USA, but I do think they would support an opponent of a politician that had been "heard" expressing a lack of interest in financial and military support for Israel.

Well, they regularly sell US secrets to China, so I don't think they really give two shits about "hurting the US." Examples: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/israel-accused-of-s... https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israe... I could be wrong! Maybe selling US secrets to china is to ensure the USA is still on their side? I'm not a politician; it's above my paygrade. Somehow other US allies…

'Somehow other US allies don't have these sorts of "hey let's spy on our friends" impulses'

Pretty much any US ally with a functional intelligence capability spies on the US. And we spy on all of them. And it's not always for traditional diplomatic or political purposes. Some governments, such as France's, have a tradition of aggressive espionage to get a commercial advantage for domestic corporations.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#282
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Much of their spying on the USA is not to harm the USA, but to ensure the USA is still on their side. I don't think they want to hurt the USA, but I do think they would support an opponent of a politician that had been "heard" expressing a lack of interest in financial and military support for Israel.

> Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Why should we care as US citizens? > I don't think they want to hurt the USA, but I do think they would support an opponent of a politician that had been "heard" expressing a lack of interest in financial and military support for Israel. I don't think we'll ever see that here in the U.S. unfortunately...the "Israel Lobby" wouldn't l…

For USA citizens who are Jewish, they want their homeland to continue to exist. For the military industrial complex, they see it as jobs and profit. For the politically minded, they might prefer to see democracy prevail.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#283
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am staunchly opposed to national borders. I don't think it's right to discriminate against people for where they are born. National borders are not about "discriminating against people for where they are born", anymore than your family house discriminates against people based on which family they were born into. One would assume you don't just let anyone in your house, or feed everybody just like you do your chil…

> National borders are not about "discriminating against people for where they are born" They might not be about that, but they do that. Why do I deserve good healthcare, food, housing and a great quality of life and someone born in Syria doesn't?

Because your predecessors worked to build that for you and their fellow people. Why do you think parents pay for their children's education. Why do you think many don't just provide the minimum, but instead go beyond that?

You did not do anything to get that. But your parents, their parents and those who came before them did, with the intention that you would.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#284
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every country spies on everyone else, including allies. But the extent and depth of Israeli spying in the U.S. is considered to be particularly extreme for allies. Importantly, there are rarely any repercussions, and Israel never cops to it, which is sort of a slap in the face. When it was discovered that the U.S. was tapping Angela Merkel's cellphone there was public outrage in Germany, shock in the international co…

Regardless of the attempt here at painting a country's foreign policy as partisan, any given country favors one U.S. party over the other. Right now, China probably favors a Democrat led government, so does Iran. The U.S. probably favors one Israeli party over the other. Your entire issue with this is likely because you perceive Israeli spying to oppose your political party. On those lines, would you classify Chinese…

> Regardless of the attempt here at painting a country's foreign policy as partisan

It's not just my opinion, even AIPAC has become critical of Israel's departure from historic norms: https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/aipac-conference-urgent...

> Your entire issue with this is likely because you perceive Israeli spying to oppose your political party.

Yes, every Democrat must be fuming at attempts to spy on their political foe, President Trump. (FWIW, I'm not a registered Democrat.) But, okay, sure, there's definitely a growing undercurrent of anti-Israel sentiment among Democrats. And like many partisan issues it has it's obnoxious and counter-productive moments. But why do you think that is? It has gone hand-in-hand with the shift of Israeli lobbying to Republicans. Which came first is irrelevant and not worth arguing except to say it's been a slow shift among many parties (politicians, organizations, etc) across the board that has accelerated in the past 10 years.

> On those lines, would you classify Chinese/Iranian spying efforts as harmless, just because they currently bat for the Democrats? Or Canada, given that they are allied?

China and Iran aren't close allies. They're not even allies. And nothing I've said here or anywhere else would even suggest I believe their espionage is harmless. What their espionage doesn't do is destroy trust, because there's no trust to destroy. And Canada has no reputation for high-level espionage targeting Americans, let alone American political leaders. And whatever the extent of it, if it ever rose to the level of Israeli activity it'd be a shock to everybody inside the Beltway.

> Also, it is being taken as fact that Israel is the originator of the sting rays, when in reality this isn't conclusive.

Of course it's not conclusive. From a standpoint of someone without a security clearance, it's admittedly even less conclusive than the Russian election interference campaign, or 9/11 for that matter. Nothing is conclusive, not even the notion that the sun will come up tomorrow. Everything is contingent on the validity of circumstantial evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRNO1LFQBWI&feature=youtu.be...

> it makes zero common sense for the U.S. to undermine it's own national security by repeatedly going easy on Israel.

Neither domestic nor international politics is based on common sense, let alone an objectively rigorous analysis of the situation.

> citations outstanding on the following open ended claims made

I don't even know where to start with citations. I majored in International Affairs as an undergraduate and interned for several years at a K Street lobbying organization that promoted U.S.-Israel defense cooperation. I've read countless books and articles on these issues generally, and have personally met (albeit as an intern) people like John Bolton and an Israeli defense minister (probably Moshe Arens; previously I wrote Ehud Barak but that doesn't seem right looking at the timeline[1]). Of course we never discussed policy, let alone spying, but I'm comfortable believing that as compared to the vast majority of people I have a relatively objective perspective on U.S.-Israel security matters which, if anything, favors Israel.

The facts (such as they are) of Israeli spying in the U.S., the sentiments of the intelligence community, and the opinions of political scholars are readily available with the slightest bit of concerted effort. There's not even any significant dispute about these things generally, only about their prudence relative to Israel's existential security posture, and the substantive threat they pose to American security. As I said, Israel planting stringrays is bold but not that surprising. And, sure, it's entirely possible it will turn out Israel didn't do it, but the claim is quite credible, and regardless there's an exceptionally well established baseline consensus regarding the extent of Israeli espionage on which to uniquely criticize (or at least distinguish) their espionage activities. For example, the Newsweek article I and others posted earlier from 2014 references open Congressional meetings with testimony given by intelligence officials attesting to its unique nature.

You can stick to your own faux skepticism if you want. But if you applied it equally to everything in your life I'm not sure how you'd have confidence in the existence of anything you didn't personally observe yourself.

[1] It was during the week of several events in Washington for NATO's 50th anniversary, the same week and possibly even the same day I also got to shake hands with the President of Bulgaria who handed me a CD of propaganda[2] material to post on our website that supported their entry into NATO. So maybe sometime in 1999?

[2] And "propaganda" isn't an accusation or judgment. It's just the proper term for material used by governments to sell and persuade an idea or objective. I don't think we ever used much if any of the videos and other material on there as nobody wanted to write an article or essay as a pretense for publishing it. I don't think any American leaders ever had serious reservations about Bulgaria joining NATO, anyhow. That lack of caution is exactly why Russia has been so pissed about NATO expansion.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#285
post #283
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> National borders are not about "discriminating against people for where they are born" They might not be about that, but they do that. Why do I deserve good healthcare, food, housing and a great quality of life and someone born in Syria doesn't?

Because your predecessors worked to build that for you and their fellow people. Why do you think parents pay for their children's education. Why do you think many don't just provide the minimum, but instead go beyond that? You did not do anything to get that. But your parents, their parents and those who came before them did, with the intention that you would.

I understand your arguments. I'm not discounting them. I am saying I don't agree with them. It sounds dangerously like when I was just out of college and I didn't understand why something in the company was done that way and I would get a response like, "Because that's the way it's always been done."

Folks in Tuvalu are going to lose the entirety of their geographical boundary to the sea.

I don't see why people should be kicked out of a country because they were born in another country. The whole concept of "illegal immigrant" just seems so ... medieval. Someone isn't allowed to live and work in a land because they were born across an imaginary line in the sand?

I don't get it

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#286
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not justifying it. I'm explaining Israel's rationale for doing it. I am staunchly opposed to national borders. I don't think it's right to discriminate against people for where they are born. IMO, all human beings should be allowed to freely travel and work anywhere on planet earth. EDIT: Or outer space for that matter...

The No Borders belief is very idealistic. How does that work with state benefits like universal healthcare? And taxes? Yes it would be nice to be able to pick up and live/work anywhere but it's not as simple as one might think.

> How does that work with state benefits like universal healthcare?

It would presumably work like it does in the EU presently - a agreement to provide care for any EU citizen reciprocally regardless of which country they reside in, with some very basic residency requirements to cut down on health tourism (3-6mo residency normally).

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#287
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>if I don’t think there should be nations. I’m saying it takes an absolutely unbelievable amount of bourgeoisie privilege to think this. It’s an idea that’s so naive it’s not even worth engaging on the merits, which is why I pointed out that people in certain social and political groups make utopian platitudes like this as a mechanism to signal how elite they are. Kind of like how people pretend to like “modern art”…

I don't know why you think it takes privilege to think this. If I was born in very bad country, I would still think it isn't fair that some people have a better life just because they were born in Norway or USA or Canada. I'm not making these statements in order to look anything. It's just what I believe based on my observation of the world around me. I don't even know what bourgeoisie privilege is.

If you are looking around your personal space and thinking “gee no borders would work out great” then you’re living in the very definition of bourgeoisie privilege.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#288
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what the Spanish American War has to do with this? > I wouldn't describe an expert's opinion as "speculation". The person isn't describing an event that occurred, but rather what someone else would have done under a given set of circumstances....he is discussing something that literally did not happen (well, at least to his knowledge - if it had, then his speculation could be proven true, false, or other…

"yellow journalism" was a major factor in swaying american public opinion into supporting a war with Spain. It's a very long standing problem. Not a recent development.

Ok....are you accusing Politico of yellow journalism?

Have you changed your mind on the speculation issue?

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#289
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you think it takes privilege to think this. If I was born in very bad country, I would still think it isn't fair that some people have a better life just because they were born in Norway or USA or Canada. I'm not making these statements in order to look anything. It's just what I believe based on my observation of the world around me. I don't even know what bourgeoisie privilege is.

If you are looking around your personal space and thinking “gee no borders would work out great” then you’re living in the very definition of bourgeoisie privilege.

That doesn't make any sense.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#290
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* An excuse to subsidize the US defence industry * Improvements to US military technology (Israel tweaks stuff and then we use their tweaks) * Anti-terrorism training and expertise (we started caring a lot more in 2001; they've been dealing with it longer than that) * A liberal democracy in a part of the world without any others (whether or not you value this is up to you, but many Americans do) * Intelligence * A lo…

In terms of R&D - Israel develops military research far cheaper than the US military industrial complex charges, and the results are shared back with the US. Some examples are the Iron Dome missile defense system, Predator Drones, Stuxnet, and early cell phone technology.

Stuxnet? Any references?
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