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Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

politico.com

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Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#271

Post by writepub »

wahern wrote: post #255
writepub wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how's this different from America spying on Israel, or any of the five eyes nations it claims to not spy against? Every country spies on everyone else.

Every country spies on everyone else, including allies. But the extent and depth of Israeli spying in the U.S. is considered to be particularly extreme for allies. Importantly, there are rarely any repercussions, and Israel never cops to it, which is sort of a slap in the face. When it was discovered that the U.S. was tapping Angela Merkel's cellphone there was public outrage in Germany, shock in the international co…

Regardless of the attempt here at painting a country's foreign policy as partisan, any given country favors one U.S. party over the other. Right now, China probably favors a Democrat led government, so does Iran. The U.S. probably favors one Israeli party over the other. Your entire issue with this is likely because you perceive Israeli spying to oppose your political party. On those lines, would you classify Chinese/Iranian spying efforts as harmless, just because they currently bat for the Democrats? Or Canada, given that they are allied?

Also, it is being taken as fact that Israel is the originator of the sting rays, when in reality this isn't conclusive.

I believe the U.S. and Israel have proportionate response to each other being caught spying, it makes zero common sense for the U.S. to undermine it's own national security by repeatedly going easy on Israel.

So, citations outstanding on the following open ended claims made:

1. Extent and depth of Israeli spying in the U.S. is considered to be particularly extreme (and U.S spying in Israel isn't)

2. US is easy on Israeli spying efforts despite Israel being hard on US spying efforts

3. Israel is definitely behind the sting rays

4. Your reaction to this story is partisan

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#272

Post by remarkEon »

chimi wrote: post #260
remarkEon wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’m staunchly opposed to national borders... Not sure what that has to do with this at all? It definitely sounds like bourgeoisie/boutique political signaling though. Only those with a certain level of privileges can make platitudes like that while the rest of us deal with the real world ... where borders clearly matter.

I'm not sophisticated enough to know what political signaling is, so it might be that. I don't know. What it has to do with it is that I can't justify nations spying if I don't think there should be nations. We are all people. No one chooses where they are born, their race, gender, etc. If it's wrong to discriminate for things over which we have no control, then I believe place of birth is no different than race or g…

>if I don’t think there should be nations.

I’m saying it takes an absolutely unbelievable amount of bourgeoisie privilege to think this. It’s an idea that’s so naive it’s not even worth engaging on the merits, which is why I pointed out that people in certain social and political groups make utopian platitudes like this as a mechanism to signal how elite they are. Kind of like how people pretend to like “modern art” in order to look “cultured”.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#273

Post by JetSpiegel »

ceejayoz wrote: post #104
bakuninsbart wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia can be quite problematic if you just look at the page - the way you describe using it, and adding in checking the sources and references, it is a great tool. But if you want to see an example of "opinionated" people ruining wikipedia, just look at the pages about specific philosophy topics and compare them to the SEP. - On wikipedia a self-learned person is worth as much as an expert, and might be able to p…

An author I follow on Twitter had trouble getting his birthday corrected on Wikipedia - it got reverted repeatedly as "original research" when he tried to fix it. Had to launder it through a third party by posting the correct one to Twitter and asking his fans to edit it on his behalf.

https://xkcd.com/978/

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#274

Post by JetSpiegel »

flyinglizard wrote: post #138
tracer4201 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s unfortunate we would rely on either of these countries to be our eyes and ears. Both are corrupt. Saudi appears worst to us in the west because their daily way of life isn’t so compatible with western values, especially with respect to religion in government (or freedom of, rather) and general human rights and women’s rights. Israel appears to be democratic but discriminates heavily and are also driven to a grea…

Before you accuse Israel of discrimination, you should consider that 20% of Israelis are Arabs (compare that to 12% of Americans being black) and that Arabs had legal equality in Israel decades before blacks did in America. The relationship between Israel and its Arab minority is much more nuanced than you think. I’d call it passive aggressive, going both ways.

> 20% of Israelis are Arabs

Does that include the Palestinians, do the Israeli government counts them as people?

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#275

Post by eth0up »

scottlocklin wrote: post #162

It's not like the Israelis haven't done this before and not paid any consequences for it. 2000: https://www.wrmea.org/000-june/despite-coverup-israel-caught... 2015 caught greasing politicians: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-spy-net-on-israel-snares-co... 2011: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/us/08spy.html 2015: https://theintercept.com/2015/03/25/netanyahus-spying-denial... 2014: https://www.newsweek.com/israel…

Yourlist.append(https://archive.org/details/israeli-spying-in-united-states.) Above is the strange Carl Cameron story that disappeared. Mentions Amdocs and Infosys and other interesting things. I'm very surprised that the video works on archive.org.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#276

Post by habnds »

mistermann wrote: post #249
habnds wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should look up any number of books about how the US got into the Spanish American War in 1898. It's a very long standing problem. I wouldn't describe an expert's opinion as "speculation". Maybe it's becuase you don't agree with their opinion that you see it that way?

I'm not sure what the Spanish American War has to do with this? > I wouldn't describe an expert's opinion as "speculation". The person isn't describing an event that occurred, but rather what someone else would have done under a given set of circumstances....he is discussing something that literally did not happen (well, at least to his knowledge - if it had, then his speculation could be proven true, false, or other…

"yellow journalism" was a major factor in swaying american public opinion into supporting a war with Spain. It's a very long standing problem. Not a recent development.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#277

Post by RyanAF7 »

nosianu wrote: post #46
bhouston wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing about this article seems untrustworthy. Politico is a highly trustworthy paper that had real reporters who talk to real people all over the US government and it references real events and people and papers all throughout this article. Your comment seems out of place.

> Nothing about this article seems untrustworthy. You got it reversed. What about it seems trustworthy ? Russel's teapot and all that, the one making claims has to prove it, not others have to disprove it. > Politico is a highly trustworthy paper Trust-proof should be per-concrete-article, not per publication. > Your comment seems out of place. [Citation needed] :-) -- Seriously, I don't see anything wrong. Okay, you…

> Russel's teapot and all that, the one making claims has to prove it, not others have to disprove it.

That's not what Russel says. It's unfalsifiable claims, not just "claims".

An absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

The burden of proof isn't about citations it's about providing sufficiently justified reasoning for a belief.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#278

Post by bowcoy »

bowcoy wrote: post #267
remarkEon wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, their spying is justified because they need to know in advance if US politicians wouldn’t fully support a potential WWIII-esque intervention on their behalf, ostensibly so they could throw their own support behind a different US politician? And this is ... not viewed as insane by normal people?

Obama/Kerry did the Iran nuclear talks and did not invite Israel. Israel deems it necessary for survival to know everything and all they can about Iran. So they (and other capable agencies) basically bugged an entire hotel. > When the talks shifted to a luxury hotel in Vienna, the microwave radiation from the surveillance efforts of competing intelligence agencies was so intense that diplomats had to walk some distan…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Internet_Defense_Force

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#279

Post by chimi »

remarkEon wrote: post #272
chimi wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sophisticated enough to know what political signaling is, so it might be that. I don't know. What it has to do with it is that I can't justify nations spying if I don't think there should be nations. We are all people. No one chooses where they are born, their race, gender, etc. If it's wrong to discriminate for things over which we have no control, then I believe place of birth is no different than race or g…

>if I don’t think there should be nations. I’m saying it takes an absolutely unbelievable amount of bourgeoisie privilege to think this. It’s an idea that’s so naive it’s not even worth engaging on the merits, which is why I pointed out that people in certain social and political groups make utopian platitudes like this as a mechanism to signal how elite they are. Kind of like how people pretend to like “modern art”…

I don't know why you think it takes privilege to think this. If I was born in very bad country, I would still think it isn't fair that some people have a better life just because they were born in Norway or USA or Canada.

I'm not making these statements in order to look anything. It's just what I believe based on my observation of the world around me.

I don't even know what bourgeoisie privilege is.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#280

Post by chimi »

coldtea wrote: post #268
chimi wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not justifying it. I'm explaining Israel's rationale for doing it. I am staunchly opposed to national borders. I don't think it's right to discriminate against people for where they are born. IMO, all human beings should be allowed to freely travel and work anywhere on planet earth. EDIT: Or outer space for that matter...

> I am staunchly opposed to national borders. I don't think it's right to discriminate against people for where they are born. National borders are not about "discriminating against people for where they are born", anymore than your family house discriminates against people based on which family they were born into. One would assume you don't just let anyone in your house, or feed everybody just like you do your chil…

> National borders are not about "discriminating against people for where they are born"

They might not be about that, but they do that. Why do I deserve good healthcare, food, housing and a great quality of life and someone born in Syria doesn't?

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