Live data from Hacker News

Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

politico.com

251–260 of 346 posts

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#251
post #168

2019: > An Israeli Embassy spokesperson, Elad Strohmayer, denied that Israel placed the devices and said: “These allegations are absolute nonsense. Israel doesn’t conduct espionage operations in the United States, period.” 2014 ( https://www.newsweek.com/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757 ): > Aaron Sagui told Newsweek "Israel doesn't conduct espionage operations in the United States, period. We condemn the fact that…

And how's this different from America spying on Israel, or any of the five eyes nations it claims to not spy against?

Every country spies on everyone else.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#252
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Much of their spying on the USA is not to harm the USA, but to ensure the USA is still on their side. I don't think they want to hurt the USA, but I do think they would support an opponent of a politician that had been "heard" expressing a lack of interest in financial and military support for Israel.

Let me get this straight: Israel risks pissing the U.S by spying on them, which can lead to them cutting ties with Israel, in order to make sure that US does not cut its ties with Israel. Would you risk spying on your girlfriend to make sure she wants to stay your girlfriend? This makes no sense.

There's not actually any risk, as plainly evidenced by the fact that the State Department has never even given a light wrist slap for any of the dozens of incidents mentioned in the top comment, under Bush, Obama or Trump. There's literally nothing Israel could do to cause the US to "cut ties", let alone even meaningfully rebuke them. Like his buddy Donald, Bibi could shoot someone in the middle of 5th Ave and nothing would happen. US security and energy interests are simply too entrenched in supporting Israeli hegemony.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#253
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Much of their spying on the USA is not to harm the USA, but to ensure the USA is still on their side. I don't think they want to hurt the USA, but I do think they would support an opponent of a politician that had been "heard" expressing a lack of interest in financial and military support for Israel.

So, their spying is justified because they need to know in advance if US politicians wouldn’t fully support a potential WWIII-esque intervention on their behalf, ostensibly so they could throw their own support behind a different US politician? And this is ... not viewed as insane by normal people?

I don't even think the motivation is primarily about maintaining military support - it's already a given. Even if the US political regime swung far to the left, there's simply no chance they aren't going to bat for Israel in an full scale military conflict. I suspect their spying is much more motivated by anticipating and influencing political and economic events or policy that they have second order interests in - ie trade policy, foreign investments, relationship with China, etc.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#255
post #168

2019: > An Israeli Embassy spokesperson, Elad Strohmayer, denied that Israel placed the devices and said: “These allegations are absolute nonsense. Israel doesn’t conduct espionage operations in the United States, period.” 2014 ( https://www.newsweek.com/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757 ): > Aaron Sagui told Newsweek "Israel doesn't conduct espionage operations in the United States, period. We condemn the fact that…

And how's this different from America spying on Israel, or any of the five eyes nations it claims to not spy against? Every country spies on everyone else.

Every country spies on everyone else, including allies. But the extent and depth of Israeli spying in the U.S. is considered to be particularly extreme for allies. Importantly, there are rarely any repercussions, and Israel never cops to it, which is sort of a slap in the face.

When it was discovered that the U.S. was tapping Angela Merkel's cellphone there was public outrage in Germany, shock in the international community, and substantial consequences in terms of further reduced intelligence cooperation. It's worthwhile to mention that U.S. and German intelligence sharing is much more limited than between the U.S. and Israel, which is why Obama approved the tapping in the first place.

When U.S. espionage efforts in Japan were publicized, Obama ended up apologizing to Shinzo Abe.

AFAIK, the only other ally in recent U.S. history (past 50 years) that came close to the extent and depth of Israeli espionage is France. But nobody in the U.S. gave them a pass, either.

There are countless ways to distinguish Israeli efforts. Attempts to equivocate here basically amount to whataboutism. Until recently it would be hard to make strong value judgments because Israel is of course a sovereign nation with its own self interests, and their obnoxious spying seemed harmless enough considering they know how to keep a secret and were careful not to obstruct finalized Washington policy. But the problem with spying is that it can injure trust, and allies need to be able to trust each other as much as practicable. Now that Israel doesn't even pretend to be non-partisan wrt American politics, and even aggressively lobbied to kill the signed & sealed Iran nuclear deal, their efforts have arguably crossed a line even given the "special relationship" between the U.S. and Israel. (OTOH, I wonder which came first, the stingrays or Trumps public disclosure of secret Israeli intelligence. Perhaps Israel took the risk partly because of their distrust in Trump, either his honesty generally or at least his ability to keep a secret.)

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#256
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without support from the USA, it would not be possible for Israel to defend itself. Much of their spying on the USA is not to harm the USA, but to ensure the USA is still on their side. I don't think they want to hurt the USA, but I do think they would support an opponent of a politician that had been "heard" expressing a lack of interest in financial and military support for Israel.

Let me get this straight: Israel risks pissing the U.S by spying on them, which can lead to them cutting ties with Israel, in order to make sure that US does not cut its ties with Israel. Would you risk spying on your girlfriend to make sure she wants to stay your girlfriend? This makes no sense.

Every nation collects dirt on every other nation if they have the manpower and funds to do it. You can be sure there are British and French spies in the USA as well as the obvious Russian and Chinese ones. and Vice Versa as well of course.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#257
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it is possible, why would it ever be implemented? The vast majority of users don't care about this. And even if they did, it's not like there's any real competition in cellular carriers, so there still wouldn't be incentive for carriers to implement this. On the flip side, there is lots of demand from law enforcement for them _not_ to. Law enforcement uses stingrays and would certainly pressure carriers to no…

Isn't that a bit like asking why HTTPS would ever be implemented, and saying that the vast majority of users don't care about internet privacy, and law enforcement would very much prefer we don't use encryption? The reason I see it being implemented is to prevent StingRay from being a thing.

The barriers to entry for building HTTPS software are a lot lower than building out cellular infrastructure. For HTTPS you have a lot of altruistic people and companies, like letsencrypt and Mozilla willing to give some resources to make HTTPS everywhere possible.

There really isn’t a similar entity in the cellular carrier world. Trying to start something new tomorrow that is more secure would take a huge investment and would likely take a very long time to recoup that investment in today’s climate, as mentioned it’s not enough to get regular users to switch.

So unless the government mandates it which I think we all agree is not in their best interest or some very rich person comes along and offers carriers a compelling reason to switch I just don’t see it happening.

And I totally agree with you that it should be done. I just don’t see how given where we are today.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel espionage? That's ludicrous. https://www.mintpressnews.com/cia-israel-mossad-jeffrey-epst...

Former CIA and Mossad workers working in the highly (and badly) regulated private sector is not "Israel espionage" on the US government. Edit: Why the down vote?

Intelligence agencies should not be permitted to launder their accountability and reputation through private contractors. By that I mean, when they inevitably do it you should call it what it is, not play along with their convenient fiction.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#259
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why phones don’t connect to towers anonymously Since the GSM era, law enforcement all over the world has appreciated being able to tie cell phone signals to individual devices. IMEI etc is part of the standard for a reason.

While I appreciate law enforcement wanting to do it's job, there's zero technical reason to require compromised privacy and/or protocols that allow for malicious third parties to impersonate legitimate service providers, right? There is no reason that the phone can't first check that the tower is legitimate before providing identity, and that the tower then checks whether the phone is legitimate before providing any…

But LEA are the ones setting up the illegitimate “towers”. It’s not about them keeping you safe from scary black hats, it’s about them being able to use them without hurdles to jump over.

And as far as the carriers are concerned most of the public doesn’t care, LE is happy and they don’t have to spend money upgrading anything.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#260
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not justifying it. I'm explaining Israel's rationale for doing it. I am staunchly opposed to national borders. I don't think it's right to discriminate against people for where they are born. IMO, all human beings should be allowed to freely travel and work anywhere on planet earth. EDIT: Or outer space for that matter...

>I’m staunchly opposed to national borders... Not sure what that has to do with this at all? It definitely sounds like bourgeoisie/boutique political signaling though. Only those with a certain level of privileges can make platitudes like that while the rest of us deal with the real world ... where borders clearly matter.

I'm not sophisticated enough to know what political signaling is, so it might be that. I don't know.

What it has to do with it is that I can't justify nations spying if I don't think there should be nations. We are all people.

No one chooses where they are born, their race, gender, etc. If it's wrong to discriminate for things over which we have no control, then I believe place of birth is no different than race or gender.

Post reply on HN