Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B • Hacker News Board

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#181

Post by darksaints » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:31 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #142

cr0sh wrote: post #39

It's hearing things like this that make me regret having supported Luckey on his Kickstarter. I had followed him for a few years on the MTBS3D forum when he was experimenting with various HMD prototypes (usually modding the heck out of the Forte VFX-1). He just seemed like a kid with a dream, and the will and ability to make it happen - and potentially revive VR for "Round 2". I suppose he did do that, and while I di…

I applaud your honesty in expressing a desire for open borders. I think culture would benefit from more open and honest discussions on this topic as all the double speak makes it frustrating and boring to discuss, normally. I’m not really very interested in borders one way or the other but national borders certainly aren’t “artificial.” There are certainly some artificial aspects (lines of longtitude, etc) but border…

Culture isn't artificial, but lines in the sand create hard disconnects where culture is much more fluid. I'm a Seattlite, and I can tell you I feel more cultural similarity to British Columbians than I do to Texans. And people from Miami have a lot more cultural similarity to Cubans and Veneuzuelans than they do Alabamans. And Guatamalans have a ton of cultural similarity to Hondurans and Salvadorans, but northern Mexico might as well be Thailand to them. Cultures didn't define our borders, Manifest Destiny did...and cultures transcended those borders.

We have a 250 year precedent as an immigrant nation. We have always been at least somewhat tolerant of massive waves of migration, whether they were Germans, Italians, Irish, British, Chinese, etc. We have already lost any claim that our borders are lines in the sand for our socioethnic culture.

The only aspect of "American" culture that seems to be represented by our borders is a love of capitalism. And considering the fact that you can't really have capitalism with restricted trade and restricted movement of labor, it seems to me that Trump is more of a cultural invader than Salvadorans are.

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#182

Post by lliamander » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:32 PM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #162

lliamander wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, there might be quite a few in terms of absolute numbers, but as a percentage of the population they are most definitely in the minority. See this Harvard poll from last year: https://caps.gov.harvard.edu/news/caps-harris-poll-immigrati... Not only do the majority of Americans not want open borders, they want less immigration than is currently occurring.

Oh, clearly they are in the minority but I was responding to a claim that indicates they are negligible it non-existent. I would argue that many people oppose open borders in practice but not in theory. There are good practical reasons why open borders are a bad fit for many situations. That does not mean that those situations can't be changed to make that no longer true.

> Oh, clearly they are in the minority but I was responding to a claim that indicates they are negligible it non-existent.

That's fair. I didn't necessarily read it that way, but I think we're more or less on the same page.

> I would argue that many people oppose open borders in practice but not in theory.

I'm not sure that we will see a practical set of circumstances where people would actually be OK with open borders. People have always had some reflex against migration (for cultural reasons, as well as perhaps an instinct fear of disease) and mass migration has historically almost always led to violence.

On top of that, most developed countries have an established welfare state. Any sort of communal system needs a way to ensure that the contributions to the pooled resources is greater than the demand on those resources. If you don't have immigration control then you get a "tragedy of the commons".

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#183

Post by tensor » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:32 PM UTC

paggle wrote: post #21

webwielder2 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we need to protect our borders? Why not just let people live wherever they can afford?

Name one country with better-than-average standard of living that has opened its borders and thrived. There will always be a wall around something nice — either around your house, or your neighborhood, or your country.

Canada takes in a large number of immigrants and thrives for it. Based https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migra..., we take in double what the US does.

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#184

Post by irishcoffee » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:36 PM UTC

woah wrote: post #167

prepend wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I applaud your honesty in expressing a desire for open borders. I think culture would benefit from more open and honest discussions on this topic as all the double speak makes it frustrating and boring to discuss, normally. I’m not really very interested in borders one way or the other but national borders certainly aren’t “artificial.” There are certainly some artificial aspects (lines of longtitude, etc) but border…

You're mistaken about borders being some kind of fact of human nature, and you're mistaken about different countries having some kind of fundamental "different cultures". Nation states are an invention of the last few hundred years. Before that, kingdoms had borders between the lands they controlled militarily, and while they would certainly stop an invading army, they didn't have the administrative capacity or desir…

> The French national myths were much more benign, mostly centering around arrogance about cheese.

I'm not sure if it was your intent, but this sentence made me smile. =))

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#185

Post by ndarwincorn » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:37 PM UTC

_iyig wrote: post #46

cr0sh wrote: post #39

It's hearing things like this that make me regret having supported Luckey on his Kickstarter. I had followed him for a few years on the MTBS3D forum when he was experimenting with various HMD prototypes (usually modding the heck out of the Forte VFX-1). He just seemed like a kid with a dream, and the will and ability to make it happen - and potentially revive VR for "Round 2". I suppose he did do that, and while I di…

>So - while I would prefer a "monitored solution" to border control over physical imposing measures, my real preference would be for us to all work toward eliminating these national-level borders completely. You sound like someone with the ability to live anywhere, who consequently has little stake in their current "somewhere." Lots of Americans (and people in other countries) don't have this flexibility. They are di…

> You sound like someone with the ability to live anywhere, who consequently has little stake in their current "somewhere."

And you sound like someone with the same privilege speaking from a place of paternalism. Restrictive borders disproportionately harm the poor.

> I have family in New England who ran an all-organic dairy farm. They had to shut down a few years ago, in part because they couldn't compete with the farms who paid undocumented workers under the table.

Others have already debunked your trafficking claim, but your anecdote about an all-organic dairy farm is particularly laughable. 'Dey took ar jerbs' has been debunked for decades now.[1]

My mom grew up on a dairy farm in New England (I'm visiting my Grandma there in a month), and I can tell you that there's plenty of reasons that most of them are closing/consolidating, and undocumented labor isn't even top-5.

> In Germany, the 2015 migrant crisis nearly brought the far-right "Alternativ für Deutschland" into power. That crisis only abated once the Balkan states took it upon themselves to secure the E.U.'s southern border.

Wait, the migrants and open borders are to blame for xenophobia?

You do well to point out that Bush supported the DREAM act and take about as wrong a lesson from that as you possibly could. The lesson is not 'give the xenophobes a compromise to get slightly-more-sane immigration policies', it's that the rise in ultra-right wing nationalism/xenophobia around the world in the last decade should be the real thing keeping people up at night, not some imagined migrant 'invasion'.

[1]https://contexts.org/articles/the-economics-of-migration/

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#186

Post by lliamander » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:40 PM UTC

tunesmith wrote: post #165

lliamander wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, there might be quite a few in terms of absolute numbers, but as a percentage of the population they are most definitely in the minority. See this Harvard poll from last year: https://caps.gov.harvard.edu/news/caps-harris-poll-immigrati... Not only do the majority of Americans not want open borders, they want less immigration than is currently occurring.

This strikes me as one of those things where the polled results vary drastically depending on how the question is asked. The border situation (between whatever countries) is affected by globalization and communication, including the creation of the internet. When people realize how much better they can have it elsewhere (which is much easier to realize than it used to be), it creates more demand to move. But this res…

> This strikes me as one of those things where the polled results vary drastically depending on how the question is asked.

I've seen a few different polls on the subject. From what I understand open borders has always been a minority position (even among immigrants).

> And that fear that "them getting ahead" might mean that "we will fall behind" is basically what drives the demand to "protect" our borders, even while generally people are in favor of everyone having a better life.

I think it's deeper than that. I've tried to address some of the reasons why in other comments on this thread.

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#187

Post by darksaints » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:43 PM UTC

neetdeth wrote: post #176

zerr wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, everyone should have a right to change countries/cultures as they want - it shouldn't be determined by the birth lottery.

The "birth lottery" is a metaphysical construct. There is no such lottery, in which souls are assigned at random to bodies. Each human being is a rooted thing with a multigenerational history which is (in the typical case) deliberately created. Some stochastic variability is at work in this process, but it is by no means random. Every nation must have the right to choose the people it wishes to assimilate and those i…

> Every nation must have the right to choose the people it wishes to assimilate and those it doesn't. I should not be allowed to go kicking in doors and demanding acceptance. This is the fundamental basis of sovereignty.

I don't necessarily disagree with this notion, but it has its limits. Slavery, Jim Crow laws, Sodomy laws, and voting restrictions on females have all been reflections of sovereignty...and they were all fucking terrible decisions. And they were eventually overthrown not by a peaceful process of deliberative change, but through massive grassroots dissent that was absolutely illegal in every respect.

If our sovereign decision is to decide that we don't want rapists and terrorists in our country, I don't have a problem with that. But if terrorist or rapist becomes conflated with brown people, restricting all of their entry regardless of their individual merits, that's gonna be a big fucking no from me dawg. I will gladly and willingly help subvert those laws, because they are unjust laws motivated by pure racism. They deserve to be subverted.

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#188

Post by m12k » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:46 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #142

cr0sh wrote: post #39

It's hearing things like this that make me regret having supported Luckey on his Kickstarter. I had followed him for a few years on the MTBS3D forum when he was experimenting with various HMD prototypes (usually modding the heck out of the Forte VFX-1). He just seemed like a kid with a dream, and the will and ability to make it happen - and potentially revive VR for "Round 2". I suppose he did do that, and while I di…

I applaud your honesty in expressing a desire for open borders. I think culture would benefit from more open and honest discussions on this topic as all the double speak makes it frustrating and boring to discuss, normally. I’m not really very interested in borders one way or the other but national borders certainly aren’t “artificial.” There are certainly some artificial aspects (lines of longtitude, etc) but border…

I think the EU is a good example of how the border as 'a thing that prevents people from moving about' has been eliminated (via the Schengen Agreement) while it still maintains them when it comes to nation states, voting and so on. I think that's exactly the right way to do it - I think people should be able to move about, but it's also important to let people vote on a small enough scale that it is meaningful, and within a small enough group to share a culture and world-view.

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#189

Post by csb6 » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:47 PM UTC

hart_russell wrote: post #124

csb6 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MLK said something along the lines of, there is no problem with just laws (such as those upholding border security), but there is a problem when they’re applied unjustly. There is nothing wrong, all other things being equal, with enforcing border security. I think this is where your perspective comes from. Nations have sovereignty. Therefore, they can enforce their borders. If all else actually was equal, it would be…

Yeah but we're not discussing those other issues. We're specifically discussing using technology to enforce borders. If you want to make immigration to the US completely legal and unfettered that's a different conversation.

I did not say I want illegal immigration to be legal. I agree with nemothekid’s other reply.

As I said earlier, nothing exists in a vacuum. I am arguing that the U.S. government’s immigration enforcement apparatus is consistently unjust. Saying, “Oh but that’s not what we’re talking about” saddens me. That is exactly what we are talking about, only looking ahead at a new way for injustice to occur.

It is absolutely reasonable for you and I to consider who the people are who will be using this privacy-invasive technology. Increasingly, I am disappointed by the tech world’s lack of ethical awareness and foresight for these kinds of issues. The outcome won’t be “border += cool new virtual fence”. It will be “border += virtual fence” plus the bad side effects that come from making immigration enforcement more powerful, as I argued above.

On the other hand, maybe all that ethical stuff is just B.S. and all actions should be taken without thinking of consequences or context. Indeed, the world is a bit like Haskell - all pure and no side effects! Just a promising startup with some kick-ass tech ready to disrupt shit!

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#190

Post by Faark » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:50 PM UTC

_iyig wrote: post #46

cr0sh wrote: post #39

It's hearing things like this that make me regret having supported Luckey on his Kickstarter. I had followed him for a few years on the MTBS3D forum when he was experimenting with various HMD prototypes (usually modding the heck out of the Forte VFX-1). He just seemed like a kid with a dream, and the will and ability to make it happen - and potentially revive VR for "Round 2". I suppose he did do that, and while I di…

>So - while I would prefer a "monitored solution" to border control over physical imposing measures, my real preference would be for us to all work toward eliminating these national-level borders completely. You sound like someone with the ability to live anywhere, who consequently has little stake in their current "somewhere." Lots of Americans (and people in other countries) don't have this flexibility. They are di…

> We've seen what happens when other countries adopt wholesale open borders policies. [..AfD]

You make it sound like there was an actual negative impacts. I haven't seen much "horrible" data on that front. It certainly gives ammo to fearmongers, but how does this make it a less good goal to strive for?