Ban kids from loot box gambling in games • Hacker News Board

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#271

Post by autoexec » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 8:51 PM UTC

jakobegger wrote: post #216

scandinavegan wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you did good! He needs to learn how to handle this and you're right there guiding him. I have the same situation with my six-year old son and Rocket League loot boxes. He wants to spend all his limited money on them, I think he's wasting it, especially since I see the disappointment when he doesn't get the things he want, but that's a learning experience. It's worse when he once in a while gets a cool skin, becau…

That's wishful thinking. You don't learn that gambling is bad by gambling a little bit and losing a bit of money. If people were rational enough for that, people wouldn't suffer from gambling addiction. There's only one way to protect kids from gambling: don't let them get near it.

I'd like to think that understanding how the brain responds to gambling, why the games are designed the way they are and how exploitative the companies behind them are being can help, but I wouldn't expect a child to be able to really grasp all that well enough.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#272

Post by gonehome » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:01 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #257

droithomme wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not as fatalistic as you suggest: that randomly offered rewards always lead to complete zombie slave status in 100% of subjects, there's no way out, and the situation is hopeless. Studies have found propensities not absolutes across all subjects and species. For example, river otters are notoriously difficult to train using operant conditioning because they are extremely curious, but also bore easily. Getting th…

> Addictions can be hard to overcome for many. I don't think this is "addiction". Its clearly operant conditioning. You aren't going to suffer physical ailments like an Alcoholic or Heroin-abuser (or heck: even a coffee-drinker) would if you "stop pushing the button" I'm pretty sure that our concepts of "addiction" (including "willpower") are mostly pseudo-science. While psychologists are carefully studying the issue…

I'm currently reading The Dream Machine and it's my impression from that book that Skinner's work was largely discredited (or at least his results were greatly exaggerated).

I think a core tenant of his work was that there is no mental state at all and that everything is just conditioning.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#273

Post by bazooka_penguin » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:06 PM UTC

Why this coming into the spotlight now as opposed to collectible sports cards, trading carding games, coin operated gacha/cache capsule machines, etc?

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#274

Post by DanBC » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:08 PM UTC

beatgammit wrote: post #173

jacobush wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't alcoholism be very correlated with total consumption?

Maybe? There's a lot of other things to consider, such as the number of drinkers and whether it's customary to drink throughout the day or only during a small window (night). Drinking 4+ glasses of wine all at once is quite different from drinking one glass at each meal and one before bed. Extrapolate that to weekly statistics and someone who drinks a lot of wine culturally can look worse than someone who only drinks…

This thread starts by talking about "alcoholism" which is an unhelpful term because problem drinking, harmful drinking, and dependent drinking are all problems even if they're not accompanied by physical addiction.

Both the things you describe - one person have 4+ glasses of wine on a night out, and another person have one glass of wine at each meal and another before bed - are worrying.

Binge drinking (and 4+ glasses of wine is definitely a binge) significantly increases risks of a number of harms from things like accidents, STIs, unplanned pregnancy, etc. The advice strongly recommends against binging, but if it's only occasionally it's probably not that harmful.

The other situation is a bit more complicated depending on serving size and wine strength.

A small glass of wine is about 150ml. If the wine is 9% ABV that would give us 1.5 UK units per glass. Two of those a day, 6 days a week, is about 19 units. That's more than the recommended limit which is 14 units per week, and it doesn't have more than one drink free day.

A larger glass of wine is about 200 ml. The wine might be stronger at 12.5% ABV. That gives us 2.5 units per glass, and 30 units per week. This is probably problem and harmful drinking.

For alcoholism we're probably talking about people who need a medically assisted withdrawal from alcohol.

https://pathways.nice.org.uk/pathways/alcohol-use-disorders/...

A medically assisted withdrawal from alcohol would be considered if the person is drinking 15 units per day. That's two 750ml bottles of 10% ABV wine every day. This would be an outpatient programme.

An inpatient medically assisted withdrawal would be considered if the person drinks over 30 units per day. This is 750ml of 40% ABV spirits, or 4 bottles of that 10% ABV wine.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#275

Post by ianferrel » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:13 PM UTC

bazooka_penguin wrote: post #273

Why this coming into the spotlight now as opposed to collectible sports cards, trading carding games, coin operated gacha/cache capsule machines, etc?

None of those could result in $thousands charged to parents' credit cards without a lot more effort.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#276

Post by GaryNumanVevo » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:15 PM UTC

bazooka_penguin wrote: post #273

Why this coming into the spotlight now as opposed to collectible sports cards, trading carding games, coin operated gacha/cache capsule machines, etc?

With trading cards, you can trade with your friends, or buy rare cards on Ebay. Since they're physical, there's no DRM. With skinner boxes, most games don't let you transfer skins so there's no marketplace and the only way to get rare skins is to buy coins and gamble.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#277

Post by leetcrew » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:16 PM UTC

kmlx wrote: post #16

ian0 wrote: post #6

Myself and my son play Apex legends. Its an online multiplayer game thats free, but you can optionally pay to unlock cosmetic items like character outfits (skins) etc. He came into some cash recently courtesy of the tooth fairy and asked if we could buy a skin for his favorite character. I said ok. However after id purchased some in game coins we realised that we couldn't actually buy the skin he wanted, instead we h…

i've played apex legend for more than 50 hours, and had no idea you could actually spend money in that game. but i also think there's a generational divide: while i would gladly pay games for a leg up (better weapons, higher jumps, that sort of thing), i would never ever buy a "skin" for my character, or anything superficial for that matter. but I see kids getting completely hooked on this. and i don't really get it.…

do you ever buy clothes?

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#278

Post by moate » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #264

moate wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One major difference between Magic and most skinner box video games: I can sell my magic cards for real world money, and I can just buy the cards I need as singles. There's a lot of games that try to nudge closer to this with card "crafting" where you destroy card A to create in game currency that you can then use to purchase card B. This is ALMOST to the point where I find it acceptable, but until I can trade card A…

> I can sell my magic cards for real world money And you can sell CS:Go and TF2 items for Steam credit. I'm not convinced this makes anything better. A slot machine isn't the only way to get money, but I still don't think we should market slot machines to children. I think a lot of the people who dislike "lootboxes", but grew up with collectible card games like Magic, try to rationalize why one is okay and the other…

Like I said in my post, I think they're grayer than a lot of skinnerboxes, but that doesn't make them clean.

My understanding is that the vast majority of loot boxes are the sole way of acquiring the in game objects they posses. If there's a CS gun/skin/whatever in a loot box, you can't just go out and buy that thing for money. Transaction behavior is fine to me. That's one problem. Another is that you don't "own" that thing, you just have permission to use it. That's slightly different from owning a physical object.

It's an aggregate, and there are degrees of bad design patterns.

Whole game for single transaction > game with DLC > game with loot box for aesthetic features> game with loot box for core features.

I see your point that CCGs are basically the analogue version of loot boxes, and I can't entirely disagree. It's been called "cardboard crack" before, with good reason. As someone working for a tabletop gaming company who's primary product is randomized miniature figures used to play games, I also am WAY to close to this one to think objectively.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#279

Post by bazooka_penguin » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #276

bazooka_penguin wrote: post #273

Why this coming into the spotlight now as opposed to collectible sports cards, trading carding games, coin operated gacha/cache capsule machines, etc?

With trading cards, you can trade with your friends, or buy rare cards on Ebay. Since they're physical, there's no DRM. With skinner boxes, most games don't let you transfer skins so there's no marketplace and the only way to get rare skins is to buy coins and gamble.

Physical comes with its own set of problems, like bootlegs, which I've fallen before. And there are games that do have aftermarkets like PUBG and Counster Strike iirc. Are those blameless? They were/are some of the biggest lootbox games actively played today

Edit: it's to its

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#280

Post by leetcrew » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

Spooks wrote: post #141

kmjg88nvf8 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of pocket money is usually that kids can spend it on what they want. That includes sweets. Although of course parents can say "no" - but that goes for virtual items, too. Teaching kids to gamble - I would see it as the opposite, teaching them not to gamble. They will be confronted with gambling opportunities all through their lives, with higher stakes. Better to learn with pocket money. Here in Germany afaik…

If people learnt not to gamble by gambling there would be nobody with gambling problems. Teaching kids how not to gamble by gambling can be pretty bad for people who have addictive personalities, getting that gambling high and wanting to replicate that again and again. Teaching your kid it is a waste of money and not to endorse that practice might be a better choice.

> Teaching your kid it is a waste of money and not to endorse that practice might be a better choice.

how do you teach them? this sort of abstract conversation would have gone in one ear and out the other when I was a kid. I only ever learned stuff was bad if I actually experienced consequences from it.