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California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

nytimes.com

111–119 of 119 posts

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#111
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Feudalism is joining the esteemed ranks of now-meaningless words like “violence”, “cancer”, “white supremacy”, and “patriarchy”. All of those words have well-established and commonly understood meanings.

They do, but that doesn't rebut the fact that they are (recently) commonly used without intelligble meaning.

They are used with intelligible meaning.

You and others may disagree with the political or cultural implications behind the way these words are used, but that disagreement doesn't render that rhetoric invalid, or make them meaningless.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Closer, and that would help but not change the fundamental problem of who controls the means of production. I think you'll lose in the end, as we see today. You could just remove the tension of the employer-employee imbalance altogether. I'd advocate for public funding of loans for worker owned co-ops. 1 employee/owner = 1 share = 1 vote. Vote on wages, vote on bosses, run it like a democracy. Once people have democr…

Being a coop by ownership rather than direct democracy works better in my opinion - and not sure having a government sugar daddy helps they would impose to much political control.

"Government sugar daddy". That sort of slanted injection won't win many people over that don't already agree.

I'm advocating for government loans to start co-ops. Less of a "sugar daddy" than the massive corporate subsidies going on today. You missed the point on a co-op being worker owned, you have to work there to own a share, and have to own a share to acquire a vote. Ownership and direct democracy in one. Solves a lot of problems economically and socially.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#113
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do, but that doesn't rebut the fact that they are (recently) commonly used without intelligble meaning.

They are used with intelligible meaning. You and others may disagree with the political or cultural implications behind the way these words are used, but that disagreement doesn't render that rhetoric invalid, or make them meaningless.

I would love for someone to give meaning to those terms that I might have something concrete to disagree with (or perhaps even agree with--who knows?). The historical, well-known, coherent definitions patently refute their espousers' arguments, and if there was an alternate meaning why can't anyone articulate it coherently? If there are coherent, alternate meanings, they're kept as closely guarded secrets. Why would these people use words, but keep their meanings secret? It seems far more plausible that these people are choosing words with some specific negative emotion attached and applying them to their political opponents, and using the lack of any actual meaning as a sort of plausible deniability.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a coop by ownership rather than direct democracy works better in my opinion - and not sure having a government sugar daddy helps they would impose to much political control.

"Government sugar daddy". That sort of slanted injection won't win many people over that don't already agree. I'm advocating for government loans to start co-ops. Less of a "sugar daddy" than the massive corporate subsidies going on today. You missed the point on a co-op being worker owned, you have to work there to own a share, and have to own a share to acquire a vote. Ownership and direct democracy in one. Solves…

I have worked for and been a member of a well know tech coop in the uk btw.

The previous commentator said the government would be involved in setting thease coops up - now may this is not going to be used by the executive for political ends.

I was refereeing the attempt by Tony Benn in the 70's to restructure a uk motorbike manufacturer as a coop.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Government sugar daddy". That sort of slanted injection won't win many people over that don't already agree. I'm advocating for government loans to start co-ops. Less of a "sugar daddy" than the massive corporate subsidies going on today. You missed the point on a co-op being worker owned, you have to work there to own a share, and have to own a share to acquire a vote. Ownership and direct democracy in one. Solves…

I have worked for and been a member of a well know tech coop in the uk btw. The previous commentator said the government would be involved in setting thease coops up - now may this is not going to be used by the executive for political ends. I was refereeing the attempt by Tony Benn in the 70's to restructure a uk motorbike manufacturer as a coop.

I was the previous commentator. I said loans from the start in my first comment.

"I'd advocate for public funding of loans for worker owned co-ops. "

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rent control. Rent control is terrible. Even if it would prevent rents from increasing for existing tenants, that doesn't help anyone who doesn't have a rent controlled apartment from before the rents went up. Nor anyone who is looking to buy a home if it causes housing prices to go up. Rent control also discourages home ownership in general because you don't buy if price controls are making it cheaper to rent. The…

> Rent control is terrible. Rent control usually requires other interventions (that are usually not undertaken) to be net desirable, but those other interventions are not directly relevant to the problem posed. > In a functioning housing market, more demand should primarily result in more construction, not higher prices. Many housing markets are not “functioning”, and while many of the causes for that are policy rela…

> Rent control usually requires other interventions (that are usually not undertaken) to be net desirable, but those other interventions are not directly relevant to the problem posed.

Rent control is a malicious political hack for buying off the specific tenants most likely to mount a successful political campaign to actually address the root causes of high housing costs.

> Many housing markets are not “functioning”, and while many of the causes for that are policy related in many cases there are natural constraints as well.

The number of housing markets that naturally cause rents to absorb 100% of increases in local income is so close to zero that they may not even exist. Even if you're on a small island which is already full of maximally tall buildings, without regulatory restrictions prohibiting it, the rents still won't increase past the point that it becomes economical to build housing over top of the sea. That in addition to all of the ordinary possibilities when not restricted by zoning, like subdividing one large apartment into two or three smaller ones for the people who prioritize other things over size of living quarters, which then reduces competition for the remaining larger units and limits how much local income that rent increases can absorb.

> It's a housing problem that t frustrates the purpose of UBI wherever it exists, making it a UBI problem, as well.

Even if you don't have a UBI, you still have to address housing supply issues, because it also frustrates any other means of increasing the wealth of the local population. It's like arguing that a plague is a problem for the Affordable Care Act. Even if that's technically true, you have to address the plague regardless of whether you pass the ACA, and the general problem is not a specific problem when it is resolved through whatever independent means that are necessary regardless.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#117
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing people say things like "Simple competition sorts it out" as if any complex problem can be answered like that. We should really know better, given our field. Also interesting that basically anyone saying anything mildly critical of capitalism is getting downvoted without much response

I’m open to thoughtful, constructive criticisms of capitalism. Mostly what I see is “capitalism allows for some to slip through the cracks, so let’s burn it all to the ground and start over with system that has only ever failed catastrophically (or in the words of its proponents, ‘has never truly been tried before’)”.

I see literally no-one one this site suggesting we go to full communism, if that's what you're implying.

Carefully regulated capitalism should do fine. This is obviously not easy to achieve.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#118
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the same thing. I like ice cream but it's bad for me. I don't like having to pay for it but it's probably good for society that ice cream makers are rewarded for their work, at least if I want to be able to eat more in the future. The world would be a literal paradise if doing thing we like and doing good things were always one and the same thing. I don't see how you can discuss morality and ethics without…

You are using the word "bad" equivocally. Bad as in "bad for your health" is one thing (no problem with that), bad as in "eating ice cream is morally bad" is quite another. What would the claim that eating ice is morally bad even mean? All I'm suggesting is that we take care in our language and be up-front about subjectivity rather than mask it with objective-sounding reifications. This isn't an attack on morality no…

Moral relativism does not negate good/bad/right/wrong to the point that they are equivalent to "like" and "no like". That is a radical reduction, and removes the whole process of moral reasoning people use to live a moral life.

There are plenty of examples where the "right" thing to do is not pleasant, it is not socially acceptable, etc because it is instead congruent with a greater ethical structure. Please check out some moral philosophy before throwing the whole field into a bin.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think free market forces would work better if we had a culture that was less work centric. We have created a culture that places high value on work ethic, income, and personal achievement. Those are great things, but they are also great qualities for employers to exploit. If we viewed overworking, putting in 60 hour weeks or doing risky work for more money as something unhealthy and greedy, rather than as commendab…

The class of people who have bandwidth to worry about values like work ethic and personal achievement aren't the ones who are being exploited by employee vs IC misclassification.

You obviously have not listened to the numerous songs/tweets/instagram posts about “grinding” if you think valuing work ethic is exclusive to certain classes.
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