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Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#201

Post by SkyBelow »

daemin wrote: post #106
seventhtiger wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the reason Magic is different is because you are actually gambling for things with monetary value? That doesn't sound right. I'd think it'd be less like gambling if the rewards had no monetary value, like random candies or skins in a video game. Then even the hope of getting your money back isn't there. You know all you're getting is just candy or toys.

The reason Magic is different is for 2 major reasons: 1) You can sell your cards and get money from them (could be less, could be more) and they have some tangible value to other people. 2) You don't have to acquire magic cards through booster packs (aka loot boxes) only. If you want a particular card then you can go to the store and buy it. This was the major concern from the parent in the top comment of this post,…

>1) You can sell your cards and get money from them (could be less, could be more) and they have some tangible value to other people.

Shouldn't this make it a bigger problem, not a smaller one?

>2) You don't have to acquire magic cards through booster packs (aka loot boxes) only. If you want a particular card then you can go to the store and buy it. This was the major concern from the parent in the top comment of this post, that you couldn't just buy the skin directly but had to gamble for it.

I wonder if the skins were priced per their rarity values, would people still be okay with it. Some mtg cards costs $1,000s. I wonder what people would say if some game added loot boxes containing rare items that were worth similar that players could then trade for money. My guess is people would respond far more negative to this.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#202

Post by input_sh »

SkyBelow wrote: post #194
ian0 wrote: post #6

Myself and my son play Apex legends. Its an online multiplayer game thats free, but you can optionally pay to unlock cosmetic items like character outfits (skins) etc. He came into some cash recently courtesy of the tooth fairy and asked if we could buy a skin for his favorite character. I said ok. However after id purchased some in game coins we realised that we couldn't actually buy the skin he wanted, instead we h…

I'm still not seeing how this is any different than Pokemon cards where I saw the same behavior in kids back then. Is it because these days companies have thrown far more psychology at optimizing it?

> Is it because these days companies have thrown far more psychology at optimizing it?

Absolutely. Including hiring former casino personnel. Cards don't have flashy lights, music, nor the concept of a near miss.

You could call them the same only if you ignore all the context around it. For example, I know of no cards where you can purchase a more expensive card pack that has slightly higher odds of getting something good. Different loot boxes costing different amounts of money with the only difference being a slight increase in percentages are a completely common occurence.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#203

Post by fnord123 »

beatgammit wrote: post #177
antpls wrote: post #42

If we ban loot boxes in video games, why dont we ban Magic/Pokemon card boosters that you can buy from physical shops? As it's written in the article, problems arise for a minority of children. From the article, we know little about the background of these children and about their parents. It is possible that those children would have developed an addiction to something else if it wasn't video games loot boxes. Yes,…

I buy booster packs for MTG because I like drafting and sealed deck events. Randomness here is a good thing because it makes gameplay more skill based than money based when compared to constructed decks (build from your collection). If I want a specific card, I'm not going to gamble with boosters, I'll just buy the card outright at the store. And that's the primary reason I stopped playing online games like MTGA and…

>And that's the primary reason I stopped playing online games like MTGA and Eternal: playing draft was too expensive and not as fun as playing in person.

I've never played them online and just assumed you would get access to all the cards so you could build your deck as you wished. You have to pay for the different cards?

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#204

Post by lawtalkinghuman »

beatgammit wrote: post #195
jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blech. Torulf Jernstrom. I'm surprised they left that one up. It's not going to age well.

Why do you say that? The content seems fine and generally applicable to a variety of games, even though mobile gaming was his focus. And yeah, he's not as successful as others in the area, but that doesn't mean the information is bad.

He's teaching people how to profit off of getting people (including kids) into virtual gambling, microtransactions and other addictive behaviour, and exploiting "whales" (who are actual human beings).

Historically, there was a way for people to make successful, interesting, exciting and fun games that didn't require horrific financial exploitation of vulnerable players.

To quote the Dude: "You're not wrong, Walter, you're just an asshole."

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#205

Post by input_sh »

beatgammit wrote: post #174
beobab wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm. I definitely don't like the "give me a ton of money, and you might get what you want" payment mechanism. I saw it with PacMan cards and football cards back in the 80's, and then Pokemon cards for my own children. I got "stung" enough by a trader in London who demonstrated that you shouldn't buy a pig in a poke. I still keep the cheap trinket I got instead as a reminder to always find out what I'm paying for.

With Pokemon cards, you can at least buy specific cards from sellers. Many loot box items cannot be traded.

They can't be traded for legal reasons. If you were able to trade them, that would mean they'd have monetary value. As such, they'd be a nail in the coffin of labeling loot boxes as gambling.

A quote from the report[0]:

> At present, the Gambling Commission states that purchasing loot boxes does not meet the regulatory definition of licensable gambling under the Gambling Act 2005 because the in-game items have no real-world monetary value outside the games.

They later reference this written evidence[1] that suggest that such legal framework is too tight and needs to be broadened.

[0] https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmcu...

[1] http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence....

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#206

Post by bluecalm »

distant_hat wrote: post #77
bluecalm wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think education would be more effective than a ban. Teach children to recognize gambling at early stage. Show them with examples how the house/gaming studio wins by exploiting human nature. If you just protect children from exposure to gambling you will end up with vulnerable adults and adults don't have a guardian who can stop the bleeding even if the cost is a lot of kicking and screaming.

Would you also be in favor of removing age related gambling restrictions on real world gambling like slot machines? How about on things like purchasing tobacco? Let the free market handle it. These things literally hack the developing brain in not so nice ways. If you were to let marketers control it, you'd end up with a bunch of brain damaged teenagers. Countries like Singapore don't even let adults gamble freely.

I think gambling is harmful similarly to the worst of drugs. I would much rather see cocaine legal than gambling. I just think children are a demographic the least vulnerable as there is always a guardian to put stop to it, they can't lost life saving etc. I am all for limiting gambling (or outright banning many forms of it). I see the whole loot box thing as very low priority though and I think better results can be obtained by education and maybe even slight exposure to the exploitive mechanisms. If anything it's better if a child learn the hard way and lose pocket money than an if an unaware adult gets suckered in and lose their live savings, family, job.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#207

Post by jasonlotito »

daemin wrote: post #106
seventhtiger wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the reason Magic is different is because you are actually gambling for things with monetary value? That doesn't sound right. I'd think it'd be less like gambling if the rewards had no monetary value, like random candies or skins in a video game. Then even the hope of getting your money back isn't there. You know all you're getting is just candy or toys.

The reason Magic is different is for 2 major reasons: 1) You can sell your cards and get money from them (could be less, could be more) and they have some tangible value to other people. 2) You don't have to acquire magic cards through booster packs (aka loot boxes) only. If you want a particular card then you can go to the store and buy it. This was the major concern from the parent in the top comment of this post,…

Your first point is actually the opposite of what the law says.

> At present, the Gambling Commission states that purchasing loot boxes does not meet the regulatory definition of licensable gambling under the Gambling Act 2005 because the in-game items have no real-world monetary value outside the games.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#208

Post by ghostbrainalpha »

scandinavegan wrote: post #52
ian0 wrote: post #6

Myself and my son play Apex legends. Its an online multiplayer game thats free, but you can optionally pay to unlock cosmetic items like character outfits (skins) etc. He came into some cash recently courtesy of the tooth fairy and asked if we could buy a skin for his favorite character. I said ok. However after id purchased some in game coins we realised that we couldn't actually buy the skin he wanted, instead we h…

No, you did good! He needs to learn how to handle this and you're right there guiding him. I have the same situation with my six-year old son and Rocket League loot boxes. He wants to spend all his limited money on them, I think he's wasting it, especially since I see the disappointment when he doesn't get the things he want, but that's a learning experience. It's worse when he once in a while gets a cool skin, becau…

I'm a developer in Las Vegas and have worked in actual casino gaming and slot machines and I have never disagreed with a comment on Hacker News as much as I do this one.

My perspective is that there are two kinds of people. Those who understand that slot machines are dangerous and a bad long term investment, and those who do not and gradually become more and more addicted to them.

I've never seen a casino customer who was initially attracted to slot machine mechanics, gradually learn that they a poor exchange of value, overcome their addictive nature and stop playing them.

They may stop playing because they are broke. They may learn to manage the addiction at a level they enjoy and can sustain. But they don't just suddenly understand that it's a bad deal and stop wanting to play.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#209

Post by NohatCoder »

gambiting wrote: post #120
scandinavegan wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you did good! He needs to learn how to handle this and you're right there guiding him. I have the same situation with my six-year old son and Rocket League loot boxes. He wants to spend all his limited money on them, I think he's wasting it, especially since I see the disappointment when he doesn't get the things he want, but that's a learning experience. It's worse when he once in a while gets a cool skin, becau…

I mean when I was a kid you'd get this sticker album for your favourite thing(be it football players, star wars, whatever) and I'd always beg mum to get me yet another sticker pack so I could complete my collection. There were always stickers that I really really wanted and yeah, the disappointment of going through a few packs and not getting what you wanted was very real. I think ultimately, this is the same thing -…

A sticker pack "whale" might be down $50, these games might crave a hundred to a thousand times that. Also while kids make the headlines, grown ups are a far bigger market. Simply banning loot boxes for kids is to ignore the majority of the problem.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#210

Post by brainzap »

jbms wrote: post #170
scandinavegan wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you did good! He needs to learn how to handle this and you're right there guiding him. I have the same situation with my six-year old son and Rocket League loot boxes. He wants to spend all his limited money on them, I think he's wasting it, especially since I see the disappointment when he doesn't get the things he want, but that's a learning experience. It's worse when he once in a while gets a cool skin, becau…

There is permanent damage if you rewire your kids brain chemistry to get addicted to the near-miss of getting something good. Logical explanations don't undo that. I understand from a Louis Theroux documentary on gambling addicts that it is the feeling of the near miss that is actually addictive and not the feeling of the win. Gambling addicts are used to winning and so they don't get a buzz from that.

+1 I was thinking about this too, dopamine creating strong neurons which you cannot get rid off easily.
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