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Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#151

Post by AJ007 »

gambiting wrote: post #120
scandinavegan wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you did good! He needs to learn how to handle this and you're right there guiding him. I have the same situation with my six-year old son and Rocket League loot boxes. He wants to spend all his limited money on them, I think he's wasting it, especially since I see the disappointment when he doesn't get the things he want, but that's a learning experience. It's worse when he once in a while gets a cool skin, becau…

I mean when I was a kid you'd get this sticker album for your favourite thing(be it football players, star wars, whatever) and I'd always beg mum to get me yet another sticker pack so I could complete my collection. There were always stickers that I really really wanted and yeah, the disappointment of going through a few packs and not getting what you wanted was very real. I think ultimately, this is the same thing -…

There was literally the exact same claims being made about kids being turned in to gamblers by pinball games decades ago:

“New York mayor Fiorello La Guardia was responsible for the ban, believing that it robbed school children of their hard earned nickels and dimes.[41][42] La Guardia spearheaded major raids throughout the city, collecting thousands of machines. The mayor participated with police in destroying machines with sledgehammers before dumping the remnants into the city's rivers.[42]”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinball#Pinball_and_gambling

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#152

Post by gambiting »

AJ007 wrote: post #151
gambiting wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean when I was a kid you'd get this sticker album for your favourite thing(be it football players, star wars, whatever) and I'd always beg mum to get me yet another sticker pack so I could complete my collection. There were always stickers that I really really wanted and yeah, the disappointment of going through a few packs and not getting what you wanted was very real. I think ultimately, this is the same thing -…

There was literally the exact same claims being made about kids being turned in to gamblers by pinball games decades ago: “New York mayor Fiorello La Guardia was responsible for the ban, believing that it robbed school children of their hard earned nickels and dimes.[41][42] La Guardia spearheaded major raids throughout the city, collecting thousands of machines. The mayor participated with police in destroying machi…

I don't think it is the same though. With pinball you pay 20c or whatever, and you get to play the game. That's it. It's like paying $100 for an entry ticket into a bike race - you pay, you get to do the activity, the outcome is "random" in that it only depends on your own skill and external factors. With sticker packs the contents are truly random, there is no skill involved, you literally don't know what you are buying.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#153

Post by TeMPOraL »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #138
TeMPOraL wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying all ethics is against commerce, though I can't think of an ethical rule for which I couldn't construct a situation, in which breaking it is profitable. What I am claiming, though, is that the market strives to extract profit from everything that's possible, and that it will break every ethical rule that can be broken for profit in absence of very strong controls against that. It's not about what I pers…

I mean this is really just a substanceless metaphor that you’ve come up with. Your definition of economics is also just flat out wrong. Economies are comprised entirely of economic actors interacting with each other. Every economic agent is either a human being, or a collection of human beings. There are no non-human economic agents, and there are no human non-economic-agents.

By mentioning large bureaucratic structures like corporation and calling them "non-human actors", I wanted to focus your attention on the fact that behavior of a group of people working together, cooperating and competing with other such groups of people, is not well-predicted by looking at behavior of each individual involved. Much like you don't reason about a computer system by looking at what each transistor and resistor does - instead, you look at aggregates as a unit (CPU, power converter, ...), at aggregate's behavior (firmware) as modulated by the information and energy flow within the system.

I'd say it's systems thinking 101 - the behavior of the system is nothing like the behavior of individual components, and is defined primarily by the interactions that happen.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#154

Post by kmjg88nvf8 »

DanBC wrote: post #131
kmjg88nvf8 wrote: post #7

Where does the money come from, that the kids spend? Shouldn't it be the parents concern to limit the spending? While I despise many of the techniques used in modern games to make kids spend money, I also prefer them learning about these things in games, rather than in the real world (with much more money at stake). One thing that cost us a lot of money for example are the "Panini collectible cards", that predate the…

> Where does the money come from The report isn't just about the money being spent. It's also about introducing gambling mechanics to children at a young age. > acknowledge the distinction between licensed online gambling, social casino-style games that “have the look and feel of traditional gambling” but may not be licensed as such, and games containing features akin to gambling as one aspect of the overall product…

I wonder how solid the knowledge about this is? Are there actual studies showing a risk from "gambling games" at young age inducing gambling addiction? From your quotes, it sounds more like individual opinions that actual scientific knowledge?

Most games have a luck component, after all. Even Monopoly, to name one popular board game.

I don't like Roulette Wheels in my children's games, ad I have certainly seen things I don't like. For example "garden scapes" even sends notifications on the tablet computer, that new "loot" is available (I forgot how they called it).

Nevertheless, I see it as an opportunity to talk with my kids about such strategies.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#155

Post by kmjg88nvf8 »

DanBC wrote: post #130
kmjg88nvf8 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By providing better games, and parents waking up and closing the money faucet.

The politicians report covers gambling-like mechanics that don't involve money. > 69.Many games contain features that are highly similar to conventional gambling products, without gambling being the primary aim of the game. However, there are concerns that being exposed to such features from a young age might normalise gambling. One parent expressed concern that the game Bricky Farm, which is rated suitable for child…

"there are concerns" - what exactly does that mean? Scientists are concerned? Or parents? Or religious groups?

My grandmother hat a toy Roulette table, we liked to play with it occasionally when we visited her. I don't have a gambling addiction. I even gave up World of Warcraft after 2 weeks. (Social Media, however...).

We have at least one game that sends notifications on the tablet "the Roulette guy is here again, check out your winnings of the day". Of course that is awful. On the other hand, it is presumably limited (not infinite spins of the wheel every day), and also, I can talk to my kids.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#156

Post by madisfun »

mschuster91 wrote: post #108
madisfun wrote: post #46

I wonder when someone in power finally recognizes that Magic the Gathering and other CCGs, especially their digital versions, are essentially gambling machines.

With collectible card games, one has at least a tangible, transferrable object - meaning if someone wants to sell off their Pokemon/MtG cards, there is a pretty healthy market available. Even if the original manufacturer would go out of business, you would still have the assets. With DLC gambling (which is what lootboxes really are), however, there are many problems: 1) the device OS manufacturer (Google/iOS) can go…

I'm not sure if transferrable and sellable rewards make CCGs less of a gambling activity. If anything, obtaining a physical object which can be exchanged for cash, with a potential for profit, is the definition of gambling.

Non-transferrable rewards exploit the same weakness of the human psycology, but offer even less in return.

Both kinds of gambling in games should be regulated. It's not easy to define what constitutes a lootbox, and what kind of randomized output is safe. The industry will probably argue that the lootboxes are actually randomized content, not prizes.. From that point of view they sell a non-transferrable experience (service), not a tangible item (product).

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#157

Post by save_ferris »

jason46 wrote: post #134
ian0 wrote: post #6

Myself and my son play Apex legends. Its an online multiplayer game thats free, but you can optionally pay to unlock cosmetic items like character outfits (skins) etc. He came into some cash recently courtesy of the tooth fairy and asked if we could buy a skin for his favorite character. I said ok. However after id purchased some in game coins we realised that we couldn't actually buy the skin he wanted, instead we h…

My 13yr old son has spent $100s on fortnite, I told him he's going to regret that when he wishes he saved for a car, or something that will matter in 6months. I definitely blew my fair share on video games, but I also believe this is a generational shift. I do not believe charging $$ for "cosmetics" would have been as successful in "my day". But what does it mean?

One major difference to point out is that fortnite doesn’t have loot boxes, you know exactly what you’re getting when spending their online currency.

I keep hearing about the social aspects behind these games (kids who don’t have skins in fortnite are bullied at school, etc.) It sounds like goods that make a child popular are just digital these days as opposed to physical items like Pokémon cards.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#158

Post by AmericanChopper »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #153
AmericanChopper wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this is really just a substanceless metaphor that you’ve come up with. Your definition of economics is also just flat out wrong. Economies are comprised entirely of economic actors interacting with each other. Every economic agent is either a human being, or a collection of human beings. There are no non-human economic agents, and there are no human non-economic-agents.

By mentioning large bureaucratic structures like corporation and calling them "non-human actors", I wanted to focus your attention on the fact that behavior of a group of people working together, cooperating and competing with other such groups of people, is not well-predicted by looking at behavior of each individual involved. Much like you don't reason about a computer system by looking at what each transistor and…

That’s simply not true. Large organisations of people have decision makers, and their decisions can be predicted just as well as anybody else’s. Perhaps your confusion lies in the fact that in an organisation, not everybody is going to have equal influence over decisions, therefor your suggestion that every individual be accounted for in such predictions is pointless.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#159

Post by falcolas »

kmjg88nvf8 wrote: post #7

Where does the money come from, that the kids spend? Shouldn't it be the parents concern to limit the spending? While I despise many of the techniques used in modern games to make kids spend money, I also prefer them learning about these things in games, rather than in the real world (with much more money at stake). One thing that cost us a lot of money for example are the "Panini collectible cards", that predate the…

> with much more money at stake

You can literally spend tens of thousands of dollars in FIFA - most of these games don’t incorporate any kind of cap. Even Apex Legends recently had a limited time promotion that would require in excess of $200 to get everything.

That’s right up there with gambling, cars, technology, and significant others when it comes to real life spending for most people.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#160

Post by barneygale »

AJ007 wrote: post #151
gambiting wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean when I was a kid you'd get this sticker album for your favourite thing(be it football players, star wars, whatever) and I'd always beg mum to get me yet another sticker pack so I could complete my collection. There were always stickers that I really really wanted and yeah, the disappointment of going through a few packs and not getting what you wanted was very real. I think ultimately, this is the same thing -…

There was literally the exact same claims being made about kids being turned in to gamblers by pinball games decades ago: “New York mayor Fiorello La Guardia was responsible for the ban, believing that it robbed school children of their hard earned nickels and dimes.[41][42] La Guardia spearheaded major raids throughout the city, collecting thousands of machines. The mayor participated with police in destroying machi…

Pinball is skill-based; loot boxes are not.
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