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Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

bbc.co.uk

131–140 of 319 posts

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#131

Where does the money come from, that the kids spend? Shouldn't it be the parents concern to limit the spending? While I despise many of the techniques used in modern games to make kids spend money, I also prefer them learning about these things in games, rather than in the real world (with much more money at stake). One thing that cost us a lot of money for example are the "Panini collectible cards", that predate the…

> Where does the money come from

The report isn't just about the money being spent. It's also about introducing gambling mechanics to children at a young age.

> acknowledge the distinction between licensed online gambling, social casino-style games that “have the look and feel of traditional gambling” but may not be licensed as such, and games containing features akin to gambling as one aspect of the overall product or game experience rather than the predominant quality.132 Our inquiry has focused on the latter, although the other two are both important issues that merit further consideration.

> 69.Many games contain features that are highly similar to conventional gambling products, without gambling being the primary aim of the game. However, there are concerns that being exposed to such features from a young age might normalise gambling. One parent expressed concern that the game Bricky Farm, which is rated suitable for children, contains a gambling-like feature. He told us:

> > Most worrying for me is a roulette style wheel mini-game whereby differing amounts of gems can be won for further advancement. This is where the game could become addictive to someone with a susceptibility but more than that it is introducing children as young as 4 to the ‘thrill’ of gambling.133

> 70.The parent’s concern is supported by Dr David Zendle’s acknowledgment “that a really good predictor of problem gambling is the social acceptance and availability” of it.134 Indeed, the Gambling Commission told us that the Advisory Board for Safer Gambling expressed concerns in response to the Online Harms White Paper about the associations between “gambling lite behaviours and children’s behaviours”.135 Furthermore, Brad Enright from the Gambling Commission told us that even when games do not meet the regulatory threshold for gambling, but contain gambling-like features, the regulator does:

> > not think the current age ratings are in line with public expectation, so that should not be available for four-plus or even 12-plus.136

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean when I was a kid you'd get this sticker album for your favourite thing(be it football players, star wars, whatever) and I'd always beg mum to get me yet another sticker pack so I could complete my collection. There were always stickers that I really really wanted and yeah, the disappointment of going through a few packs and not getting what you wanted was very real. I think ultimately, this is the same thing -…

I don't really think "just digitized" captures the problem with these boxes. Imagine a fairly boring interface that has Pokemon cards or football stickers in. Like your hands holding them and trading them and sticking them on things. Now contrast that to the loot box stuff that has exciting music, flashing lights, A-B tested into oblivion, the money comes from some ethereal 'account' rather than involving an actual e…

I completely agree with this - those flashing lights, music and big reveal is all optimised for a dopamine hit. It feels pretty manipulative.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many extremely smart people have made the point you're disagreeing to before https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6JYk5aCB4A and your reply is not addressing it correctly. >Under intense enough competitive pressure, unethical actors outcompete ethical actors This isn't what actually happens in reality because highly unethical behavior is distasteful to most people and for the most part people don't want to work alongside…

> This isn't what actually happens in reality because highly unethical behavior is distasteful to most people and for the most part people don't want to work alongside unethical people. Yes, and because of that, nothing highly unethical ever happens on the market. No wide-scale environmental destruction, no robbing whole populations of their livelihoods, no murders for control over assets, or just to cut down on safe…

>Yes, and because of that, nothing highly unethical ever happens on the market.

This is quite the leap. The world is a big place full of people and of course there will always be unethical people doing unethical things somewhere, that's a fact of life. But you musn't be so cynical to think that the outliers are the norm when they aren't. If unethical behavior was the norm society wouldn't function, which is what the person you first replied to said and what the video I posted also said.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#134
post #6

Myself and my son play Apex legends. Its an online multiplayer game thats free, but you can optionally pay to unlock cosmetic items like character outfits (skins) etc. He came into some cash recently courtesy of the tooth fairy and asked if we could buy a skin for his favorite character. I said ok. However after id purchased some in game coins we realised that we couldn't actually buy the skin he wanted, instead we h…

My 13yr old son has spent $100s on fortnite, I told him he's going to regret that when he wishes he saved for a car, or something that will matter in 6months.

I definitely blew my fair share on video games, but I also believe this is a generational shift. I do not believe charging $$ for "cosmetics" would have been as successful in "my day". But what does it mean?

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#135
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is no fire-proof way of handling this that will work with all, or even a majority of children. (And parents.) Teach your kids to handle it, do it wisely, but if the best way is a puritan approach or a market value approach as above, I think it depends which is best. Edit: to elaborate, I think it depends on many things. One that comes to mind is, how strong is the "dopamine" effect vs vs the "oh, sudden…

> we know it's harmful when parents try to teach children to drink responsibly and "let them try in controlled conditions". It works much better to not let children drink at all. Do we? In French culture it’s not uncommon to let kids as young as 12-13 take a few sips of wine at weddings, family meals, etc; and having attended university in France, the UK, and the US, my experience is that French students are by far t…

I would imagine rather earlier at home in the Uk I used to have a small glass of hard cider with meals at the week end when I was 10 or 11.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#136
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you did good! He needs to learn how to handle this and you're right there guiding him. I have the same situation with my six-year old son and Rocket League loot boxes. He wants to spend all his limited money on them, I think he's wasting it, especially since I see the disappointment when he doesn't get the things he want, but that's a learning experience. It's worse when he once in a while gets a cool skin, becau…

"No, you did good! He needs to learn how to handle this and you're right there guiding him." What's your model for what this is though? The GP mentions a pub fruit machine. I suppose you could make the case for it being like football stickers. As I'm writing this though, I'm not entirely sure what makes fruit machine bad , football stickers good . I would guess trading stickers is a social activity, and theres an in…

I have no experience with football stickers, but my experience with Magic: the Gathering is that this sort of thing can absolutely get addictive.

But whichever thing it is, parental guidance is always a good idea. As a parent, you get a better idea of what's going on, and you can provide context for your kid and learn the lessons together. Maybe it was a scam after all, maybe it is addictive, maybe it's okay. But figure it out together.

Another thing to keep in mind: kids in France start drinking at a much younger age than elsewhere, but they do it at home, with half a glass of wine at dinner. The alcohol might still be harmful, but France certainly doesn't have the binge drinking problem that the UK has.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#137

This is a good idea, but they really need to stop all the gambling advertising disguised as kids games on daytime TV. I've observed (UK) that daytime TV commercials mainly consist of Personal Injury Compensation, mail-order-fashion and "games that you can play on your phone, tablet or computer". Always brightly coloured, very animated, and always played by attractive people. Often there's a "social" theme were the pa…

I think those adverts are targeted at lonely housewives/husbands and the unemployed rather than children. As you said, they make it seem like these virtual fruit machine/bingo games are very social, when in fact the users are probably sitting on their sofa alone. It's a similar problem though, it's aimed at exploiting a problem (loneliness) and replacing it with another problem which generates a recurring income.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that all ethics must be obstructions commerce is a pretty extreme view, that I really can’t see any justification for. An economy is nothing more than the sum of decisions made by the individuals that comprise it. I’m pretty sure the only way anybody could hold such a view would be to view all decisions they disagree with as unethical. Which is an opinion, I guess...

I'm not saying all ethics is against commerce, though I can't think of an ethical rule for which I couldn't construct a situation, in which breaking it is profitable. What I am claiming, though, is that the market strives to extract profit from everything that's possible, and that it will break every ethical rule that can be broken for profit in absence of very strong controls against that. It's not about what I pers…

I mean this is really just a substanceless metaphor that you’ve come up with. Your definition of economics is also just flat out wrong. Economies are comprised entirely of economic actors interacting with each other. Every economic agent is either a human being, or a collection of human beings. There are no non-human economic agents, and there are no human non-economic-agents.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#139

I wonder if the reluctance of the gaming industry to tackle gambling is willful or due to ignorance of the issue. Either they understand the issue but it's their profits at stake, so they'll ignore the potential problems. Or have these stealth gambling mechanisms entered the games gradually and without the industry realising that what it's doing is actually gambling and there repercussions to that.

It's cold calculated and willful. It's just too damn easy to sidestep the law in this matter.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#140

Years ago, when I was about 12 years old, I was addicted to RuneScape. Every evening after school, you'd find me cutting down trees, cooking, or venturing into the PvP zone for some awesome gear. One day, someone retired from the game by killing their character, which resulted in all of their items being dropped. I lucked out and snagged more gold than I could have ever imaged. I remember running around the house in…

I know right? Runescape back in the day was the perfect sandbox to learn these lessons. I remember lending out my expensive sword to an online "friend" who promptly logged off and blocked me. Lesson learned.

Nowadays all these sorts of transactions have been shifted into auction house-like marketplaces to prevent abuse. I think taking out this human interaction component does more harm than good, especially bundled with the new ability to (legitimately) buy game money for real cash. The adversary moved from other players taking your ingame stuff, to the game's maintainer itself taking real world money.

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