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Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#71

Post by earenndil »

antpls wrote: post #42

If we ban loot boxes in video games, why dont we ban Magic/Pokemon card boosters that you can buy from physical shops? As it's written in the article, problems arise for a minority of children. From the article, we know little about the background of these children and about their parents. It is possible that those children would have developed an addiction to something else if it wasn't video games loot boxes. Yes,…

Even millionares' kids should not be spending thousands of their parents' dollars indiscriminately. If we don't hear horror stories about it, it is because those parents are able to absorb the cost, but it still doesn't teach the kids good money habits.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#72

Post by pdkl95 »

dominicr wrote: post #12

I wonder if the reluctance of the gaming industry to tackle gambling is willful or due to ignorance of the issue. Either they understand the issue but it's their profits at stake, so they'll ignore the potential problems. Or have these stealth gambling mechanisms entered the games gradually and without the industry realising that what it's doing is actually gambling and there repercussions to that.

They know exactly what they are doing. If anyone wants proof, see Torulf Jernström's talk "Let’s go whaling: Tricks for monetising mobile game players with free-to-play"[1]. He discusses strategies for building the perfect Skinner Box, and how to design your game around operant conditioning and other psychological tricks that help people become addicted.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#73

Post by jacobush »

scandinavegan wrote: post #52
ian0 wrote: post #6

Myself and my son play Apex legends. Its an online multiplayer game thats free, but you can optionally pay to unlock cosmetic items like character outfits (skins) etc. He came into some cash recently courtesy of the tooth fairy and asked if we could buy a skin for his favorite character. I said ok. However after id purchased some in game coins we realised that we couldn't actually buy the skin he wanted, instead we h…

No, you did good! He needs to learn how to handle this and you're right there guiding him. I have the same situation with my six-year old son and Rocket League loot boxes. He wants to spend all his limited money on them, I think he's wasting it, especially since I see the disappointment when he doesn't get the things he want, but that's a learning experience. It's worse when he once in a while gets a cool skin, becau…

I think there is no fire-proof way of handling this that will work with all, or even a majority of children. (And parents.) Teach your kids to handle it, do it wisely, but if the best way is a puritan approach or a market value approach as above, I think it depends which is best.

Edit: to elaborate, I think it depends on many things. One that comes to mind is, how strong is the "dopamine" effect vs vs the "oh, sudden insight into how market economies work" in the child. (And parent, as a mirror and role model.)

If the reward response is very strong, I can't help but thinking about the knowledge we have about alcohol and children: we know it's harmful when parents try to teach children to drink responsibly and "let them try in controlled conditions". It works much better to not let children drink at all.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#74

Post by JauntyHatAngle »

kmlx wrote: post #16
ian0 wrote: post #6

Myself and my son play Apex legends. Its an online multiplayer game thats free, but you can optionally pay to unlock cosmetic items like character outfits (skins) etc. He came into some cash recently courtesy of the tooth fairy and asked if we could buy a skin for his favorite character. I said ok. However after id purchased some in game coins we realised that we couldn't actually buy the skin he wanted, instead we h…

i've played apex legend for more than 50 hours, and had no idea you could actually spend money in that game. but i also think there's a generational divide: while i would gladly pay games for a leg up (better weapons, higher jumps, that sort of thing), i would never ever buy a "skin" for my character, or anything superficial for that matter. but I see kids getting completely hooked on this. and i don't really get it.…

Well, to be blunt, that's cos you're not a kid.

I've known teachers who specifically have had to have words with kids who are bullying their classmate for not having a skin in fortnite. I'm sure that's rare but the point is that these kids are not yet equipped to deal with the kind of manipulation companies throw at you to try to get you to buy into this economy. "Hacking" skins into the game is pointless, because it's not about looking good to yourself, it's about showing off your shiny trinket to your peers.

In Australia they had these stupid figurines they were giving to parents that were inside packets, with varying rarity. Kids were going mental for them, and were begging parents to buy more groceries to get more packs.

It's definitely gambling by another name, and kids are susceptible to it massively.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#75

Post by seventhtiger »

JauntyHatAngle wrote: post #70
antpls wrote: post #42

If we ban loot boxes in video games, why dont we ban Magic/Pokemon card boosters that you can buy from physical shops? As it's written in the article, problems arise for a minority of children. From the article, we know little about the background of these children and about their parents. It is possible that those children would have developed an addiction to something else if it wasn't video games loot boxes. Yes,…

Because magic the gathering cards are an actual item tradeable for actual money to other players and resellers. It's still questionable in many ways, sure. But many of these virtual items are closed economies with the supply entirely owned by the producer of the game. These have no intrinsic value outside of this closed system and there is no ability to exchange them for real money. I'm not saying booster packs are n…

So the reason Magic is different is because you are actually gambling for things with monetary value? That doesn't sound right.

I'd think it'd be less like gambling if the rewards had no monetary value, like random candies or skins in a video game. Then even the hope of getting your money back isn't there. You know all you're getting is just candy or toys.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#76

Post by JauntyHatAngle »

cameronbrown wrote: post #69
JauntyHatAngle wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the plus side, at least in Rocket League you can trade others for the skins. There is a market rate of items due to this. This is not always the case on apex legends, where some limited offer items are only obtainable from loot boxes.

The market rates are purely manifestations of drop rates, so a rare item will likely be extremely expensive/unaffordable.

Sure, but there is a ceiling on any item that isn't one of the super super rare items that barely anyone goes for except the extreme collectors. (Usually an item that goes for much cheaper but has a special tag on it that's only visible to you.)

In apex there have been posts from people who have spent thousands to try to unlock a particular item. Literally opening the same random box 400 times and failing to get the item.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#77

Post by distant_hat »

bluecalm wrote: post #30
baroffoos wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The free market doesn't regulate flaws in human psychology. Gambling is designed to hit all these flaws to trick and manipulate you out of all your money. Children are especially vulnerable to this. The correct solution is for governments to ban companies shoving gambling at kids.

I think education would be more effective than a ban. Teach children to recognize gambling at early stage. Show them with examples how the house/gaming studio wins by exploiting human nature. If you just protect children from exposure to gambling you will end up with vulnerable adults and adults don't have a guardian who can stop the bleeding even if the cost is a lot of kicking and screaming.

Would you also be in favor of removing age related gambling restrictions on real world gambling like slot machines? How about on things like purchasing tobacco? Let the free market handle it. These things literally hack the developing brain in not so nice ways. If you were to let marketers control it, you'd end up with a bunch of brain damaged teenagers. Countries like Singapore don't even let adults gamble freely.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#78

Post by JauntyHatAngle »

seventhtiger wrote: post #75
JauntyHatAngle wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because magic the gathering cards are an actual item tradeable for actual money to other players and resellers. It's still questionable in many ways, sure. But many of these virtual items are closed economies with the supply entirely owned by the producer of the game. These have no intrinsic value outside of this closed system and there is no ability to exchange them for real money. I'm not saying booster packs are n…

So the reason Magic is different is because you are actually gambling for things with monetary value? That doesn't sound right. I'd think it'd be less like gambling if the rewards had no monetary value, like random candies or skins in a video game. Then even the hope of getting your money back isn't there. You know all you're getting is just candy or toys.

No, it has a monetary value, But you can't resell it.

People spend thousands on skins, with some of the items only accessible by repeatedly rolling the dice on a loot box. (Others have price ceilings for direct purchases).

The closed nature of the economy just means you can only purchase from the one person who is setting the price and you have no ability to trade it back in for cash.

Magic cards you can resell your cards to another player at a later date. You can't in Apex Legends.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#79

Post by bsder »

antpls wrote: post #42

If we ban loot boxes in video games, why dont we ban Magic/Pokemon card boosters that you can buy from physical shops? As it's written in the article, problems arise for a minority of children. From the article, we know little about the background of these children and about their parents. It is possible that those children would have developed an addiction to something else if it wasn't video games loot boxes. Yes,…

> If we ban loot boxes in video games, why dont we ban Magic/Pokemon card boosters that you can buy from physical shops?

I don't necessarily disagree.

However, if I want card X for Magic/Pokemon, I can look up the card online, find its value, and buy the card. Sure, I can buy booster packs, but they are not the only way to get the card I want.

With online games, loot boxes are often the only way to get what you want. That's not good.

> In my opinion, gambling in videos game means your kids will experience the risk of gambling sooner, and if you watch your kid and educate them about it, they can experience it in a safer environment than when they are adults.

The problem is that you are up against companies that are spending a lot of money to optimize the addictiveness of their product. We already know how the lack of regulation turned out in one sector(smoking)--and we especially penalize them if they try to target children.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#80

Post by dgellow »

crispyporkbites wrote: post #53
antpls wrote: post #42

If we ban loot boxes in video games, why dont we ban Magic/Pokemon card boosters that you can buy from physical shops? As it's written in the article, problems arise for a minority of children. From the article, we know little about the background of these children and about their parents. It is possible that those children would have developed an addiction to something else if it wasn't video games loot boxes. Yes,…

Honestly those boosters are a scummy product and we would all be better off without them.

We even have an alternative system that has been proven: the Living Card Games (LCG) system from Fantasy Flight.

Instead of boosters a serie of card is divided in “chapters” that are fixed and have a balanced distribution of cards. Every other month a new chapter is released, at a fixed schedule. All cards are known so you can decide which chapter you care about and want to buy. And a few times each year a big expansion pack is released, dedicated to one faction or group of cards.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/living-card-games...

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