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California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

nytimes.com

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Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost/Benefit. Uber doesn't want drivers classified as employees so they don't have to pay minimum wage, provide employee benefits, pay payroll taxes, or otherwise comply with the law vis-a-vis employees. Yet, it is one thing for Uber to hire drivers as contractors individually where Uber has full control over the terms, in other words no driver is in a position to negotiate their contract with Uber...it is an entirel…

In my country, working as an Uber driver gets you a good salary. I think it's around 1000€ (minimum wage being less than 500€). Is it different in USA? Do they get less than minimum wage for 8 hours?

Depends on where. New York for example guarantees an hourly wage. But yes, in general they often make less than minimum wage: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/01/uber-lyft...

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#232

For those of you who want to read the bill: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.x... . The pertinent part of the bill: 2750.3. (a) (1) For purposes of the provisions of this code and the Unemployment Insurance Code, and for the wage orders of the Industrial Welfare Commission, a person providing labor or services for remuneration shall be considered an employee rather than an independent contra…

As a software contractor... (A) and (B) are terrifying. I think (A) means you really can't do contract work while working under the direction of a manager, or PGM. So you essentially have to be doing work for hire rather than filling in a specialist role for a defined period of time. (B)... Wow... So if the company is a software development company, they can't hire contractors??? I really hope I'm reading that wrong.…

>I really hope I'm reading that wrong. I might want to do work for a California company one day ;-)

In theory this should be really good for software contractors, because in this should rip out the middlemen (i.e. the firms who get the contract to do the work and turn around and subcontract the work to you for pennys on the dollar). Now in theory these middlemen are gone and you as the software developer should be able to obtain the contract directly directly from the company.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#233

Is there any reason to believe the ride sharing companies won't reorganize their drivers using a similar model to what Amazon uses for their delivery drivers: contract to external firms that employ drivers so the parent entity is absolved of responsibility? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/05/us/amazon-delivery-driver...

That's what they do now.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a software contractor... (A) and (B) are terrifying. I think (A) means you really can't do contract work while working under the direction of a manager, or PGM. So you essentially have to be doing work for hire rather than filling in a specialist role for a defined period of time. (B)... Wow... So if the company is a software development company, they can't hire contractors??? I really hope I'm reading that wrong.…

If what you do as a software consultant is outside of the usual activities of the company you work for I suspect you should be fine. Uber however is a taxi company and the brunt of their primary activities are done (atm) by contractors. Driving people around is their core business - even if they will probably give the defense that they're only a middle man with an app that links independent drivers up with people loo…

I think they would argue they are an app company that connects drivers to people that need driving. Or food to people that need food. Etc. What about power sellers on ebay? Since they generate all their income from selling stuff on ebay should they be classified as employees of ebay?

Could uber work around this by having everyone form their own LLC to be an uber driver, and making that process painless for people? (or making it painful and not caring about the long term ramifications)

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#235
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is this supposed to be an unintended consequence? We all know that the cheap rides of Uber are (partially) the result of them dodging around employer obligations.

I disagree with this. What other job on the planet allows me to work when I want to work, bring my own tools, have no boss, and never even talk to the company I am working for?

This is usually called "self employment" or "owning a business"

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#236

Is there any reason to believe the ride sharing companies won't reorganize their drivers using a similar model to what Amazon uses for their delivery drivers: contract to external firms that employ drivers so the parent entity is absolved of responsibility? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/05/us/amazon-delivery-driver...

This is an important point, as many times these laws claim to do one thing and end up doing another. Does this fix a problem? Or does it keep the old problem, just in a new configuration, and add barriers to entry for new participants?

I think the answer may be "yes" effectively if it leads to establishing companies of contractors but not without side effects in themselves - like most regulations really.

If gig economies lead to working with companies instead of individuals that would lead to two distinct branches. * A self established one would give more regulatory surface for things like training and background check requirements. Not as easy to sign up before any added regulations. Constituents would get more of a pure cut. The barriers to entry would make their labor slightly more valuable. * A traditional company which hires employees. They would have a middleman to make signing up easier but likely less flexibility - which doesn't matter as much to fulltimers anyway.

It likely result in a less flexible market with more barriers to entry but it would solve some problems and act as a framework to add more solutions and problems for better or worse. It could be abused to create cartels again or responsibly handle externalities without unduly privileging - it depends on how the tool is used.

Second order effects are likely a labor pool that cannot rise and fall as quickly which would stabilize prices for the labor supply and turn instability into a company liability as they may be left with a choice of paying for idle labor for availability and meeting demand for sure or risking being unable to fulfill demand.

That said I wouldn't be surprised if widespread roll out of these sorts of laws caused a gig economy bubble to burst - especially given how many are doing a VC dumping strategy of losing money on transactions.

I don't really have strong feelings as to what would be the best nor consider myself above an amateur commentator.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a software contractor... (A) and (B) are terrifying. I think (A) means you really can't do contract work while working under the direction of a manager, or PGM. So you essentially have to be doing work for hire rather than filling in a specialist role for a defined period of time. (B)... Wow... So if the company is a software development company, they can't hire contractors??? I really hope I'm reading that wrong.…

The bill makes an exception for engineers, among other professions: > An individual who holds an active license from the State of California and is practicing one of the following recognized professions: lawyer, architect, engineer, private investigator, or accountant.

[deleted]

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#238

Is there any reason to believe the ride sharing companies won't reorganize their drivers using a similar model to what Amazon uses for their delivery drivers: contract to external firms that employ drivers so the parent entity is absolved of responsibility? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/05/us/amazon-delivery-driver...

Seems fair to me no one wants to deal with the bureaucracy of employing people or being employed why not out source that to a third party? The main problem Americans seem to face with gig economy is the lack of health care but thats americas problem you can't blame employers or employees for it.

Where I live the gig works make about or a little less than the minimum wage after expenses for vehicles. This doesn't include saving for retirement, healthcare, workmans comp, disability insurance, or a bunch of other things.

Basically, even if healthcare were taken care of the amount they make would not be a living wage.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#239
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> California loves making bandaid state fixes to federal problems, I think this is the wrong way to go. You just hit the nail on the head. The real problem is that California is grossly under-represented in government, thanks to the founding fathers and gerrymandering. We have to slap together these hacks because otherwise we would wait centuries to get any real change out of the Fed. As for "USA's democracy", screw…

How does gerrymandering affect California's representation at the Federal level? And the makeup of the Senate? It's that darn constitution again :-)

If you really don't understand how gerrymandering screws over our democracy, then you're not worth responding to.

The fact is a state with 38 million people and a GDP equivalent to 20% of the nation should have more representation than moscow mitch's welfare state of kentucky.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#240
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California already has among the most generous state-level medical benefits in the country. Here, it's hard to be in a situation in which one simultaneously can't afford insurance and doesn't qualify for Medicare or Medi-Cal (California Medicaid). Singling out California for not taking the unprecedented step of rolling out single-payer alone--which is a difficult proposition to say the least in a country that guarant…

Several countries in the EU (e.g. Nordic countries) offer single-payer healthcare services and the EU does have freedom of movement, so such a step wouldn't really be "unprecedented".

First of all, many more EU/EEA countries have comprehensive healthcare if not single-payer healthcare, so there is less of a divergence in policy in most places.

Secondly, EU freedom of movement isn't as strong. See Directive 2004/38/EC, such as the points reproduced below which AFAIK some countries already take advantage of:

"Union citizens should have the right of residence in the host Member State for a period not exceeding three months without being subject to any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport, without prejudice to a more favourable treatment applicable to job-seekers as recognised by the case-law of the Court of Justice."

"Persons exercising their right of residence should not, however, become an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during an initial period of residence. Therefore, the right of residence for Union citizens and their family members for periods in excess of three months should be subject to conditions."

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