Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties • Hacker News Board

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#751

Post by rowanG077 » Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 8:03 AM UTC

ajross wrote: post #744

ineedasername wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're oversimplifying. You're seeing a single example of a woman standing up here and extrapolating that it was because she was a woman, and assuming that no men were willing to do the same. It's not like she was the only woman to ever come close to his sphere of activity. Also there were plenty of men involved in both the first and second investigations that didn't buy into his schtick, even if his power an…

> You're seeing a single example of a woman standing up here and extrapolating that it was because she was a woman No, I'm taking an illustrative (and, frankly, really apt) example as a way to show readers here (who like you aren't generally very receptive to feminist arguments) the power of "diversity" in a way that makes immediate sense. I'm certainly not saying that no straight man could possibly have been offende…

But you make no logical case that this was actually found out because of diversity.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#752

Post by DoctorOetker » Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 8:06 AM UTC

ryacko wrote: post #733

DoctorOetker wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

quoting Greg: >Typical Crap Journalism from NYT: >>“In a deposition unsealed this month, a woman testified that, as a teenager, she was told to have sex with Marvin Minsky, a pioneer in artificial intelligence, on Mr. Epstein’s island in the Virgin Islands. Mr. Minsky, who died in 2016 at 88, was a founder of the Media Lab in the mid-1980s.” >Note, never says what happened. If Marvin had done it, she would say so. I…

Ah, the Orient Express argument.

would you mind at least explaining what an "Orient Express argument" is? I don't have time to read fiction novels.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#753

Post by DoctorOetker » Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 8:54 AM UTC

nullc wrote: post #748

DoctorOetker wrote: post #735

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If things were as you seem to imagine them, why are the victims who have come forward not even alleging that? Why are they not alleging what ?

They aren't alleging anything accused here. One of epstein's victims said that they were directed to offer Minsky sex ( https://twitter.com/_cryptome_/status/1159946492871938048 ... and yes, I did indeed look before sharing the link to Benford's comment, did you look before spreading defamatory conjecture? ). That's it, wrt Minsky. They didn't say they did offer it (though a third party did). They didn't say they had…

Object to the form!

Your original comment read:

>They aren't alleging anything accused here.

>One of epstein's victims said that they were directed to offer minsky sex. That's it. They didn't say they did offer it (though a third party did). They didn't say they had sex. They didn't say Minsky or other guests knew they were underage, or that minsky knew they were involved in prostitution.

>Beyond repeated proximity to epstein there has been no specific allegation of wrongdoing by Minsky that I've seen, but there seems to be plenty in the imaginations of the posters here.

>Maybe it turns out those things happened but if they had you would expect them to have been mentioned in the allegations. Until they're at least alleged, however, I think it's pretty absurd to just assume them.

With your karma, I would expect you not to:

1) retroactively change your upstream comment to reply to my downstream question

2) retroactively link to cryptome where you previously didn't, in response to my questioning if you even invested the effort to dig deeper

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#754

Post by nullc » Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 9:03 AM UTC

DoctorOetker wrote: post #711

nullc wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you getting the idea that Minsky knew any of it was at Epstein's direction or that she was underage? The description by Benford was that at Epstein's event a young woman explicitly propositioned Minsky, he rejected her advance and was put off by the experience enough to remark to Benford about it. It might well be that there were additional details-- that the offer was "Hi, I'm 17 and my boss says I need to…

If a bunch of underage girls were unexpectedly present, and obviously had nothing to contribute regarding artificial intelligence, then 2002 Minsky can only conclude Epstein (as the organizer) welcomed the underage girls, or else Epstein (as the organizer) would have thrown them out. It's on an island, it's not a small town music concert where girls can jump the fence to skip entrance fees... they would literally hav…

> then 2002 Minsky can only conclude Epstein (as the organizer) welcomed the underage girls, or else Epstein (as the organizer) would have thrown them out. It's on an island, it's not a small town music concert where girls can jump the fence to skip entrance fees...

Aside, It's a tangent because what happened to the victim was crap regardless of their age... But, the conference referred to was in April 2002, and the victim was born in August 1983, so they were of age at that time. (I didn't comment on the underage thing earlier because I think it's a distraction to point out that it also looked like they were technically of-age-- it's always possible that there were other earlier interactions, but that's pure speculation and I don't see why anyone should assume such a thing unless someone makes some kind of accusation of it)

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#755

Post by DoctorOetker » Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 9:59 AM UTC

nullc wrote: post #754

DoctorOetker wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a bunch of underage girls were unexpectedly present, and obviously had nothing to contribute regarding artificial intelligence, then 2002 Minsky can only conclude Epstein (as the organizer) welcomed the underage girls, or else Epstein (as the organizer) would have thrown them out. It's on an island, it's not a small town music concert where girls can jump the fence to skip entrance fees... they would literally hav…

> then 2002 Minsky can only conclude Epstein (as the organizer) welcomed the underage girls, or else Epstein (as the organizer) would have thrown them out. It's on an island, it's not a small town music concert where girls can jump the fence to skip entrance fees... Aside, It's a tangent because what happened to the victim was crap regardless of their age... But, the conference referred to was in April 2002, and the…

>...the victim was born in August 1983, so they were of age at that time

How do you go from "the victim", to "they were of age"?

You are replying to a comment that does not name a specific victim, the comment questions Minsky's choice to have his AI conferences repeatedly held on an island with groups of unsupervised underage girls, with pictures of topless underage girls scattered around the compound:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/contractor-jeffrey-epstein-quit-co...

This contractor worked there for 6 years starting from 1999 which means its representative of 2002

Also reread carefully what I wrote in my other comments, I never claimed it was Giuffre who probably had sex with Minsky, the deposition can contain testimony from other witnesses as well.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#756

Post by DoctorOetker » Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 10:28 AM UTC

DoctorOetker wrote: post #755

nullc wrote: post #754

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then 2002 Minsky can only conclude Epstein (as the organizer) welcomed the underage girls, or else Epstein (as the organizer) would have thrown them out. It's on an island, it's not a small town music concert where girls can jump the fence to skip entrance fees... Aside, It's a tangent because what happened to the victim was crap regardless of their age... But, the conference referred to was in April 2002, and the…

>...the victim was born in August 1983, so they were of age at that time How do you go from " the victim", to " they were of age"? You are replying to a comment that does not name a specific victim, the comment questions Minsky's choice to have his AI conferences repeatedly held on an island with groups of unsupervised underage girls, with pictures of topless underage girls scattered around the compound: https://abcn…

Edit: according to The Verge (obviously citing the same testimony discussed in another comment) is from Giuffre, and a witness corroborates the account. That would have been in 2001, when Giuffre was 2001, so before the conference, validating my questioning

1) how Greg Benford knows positively that Giuffre is the same girl he saw at the event

2) how Greg Benford can exclude any other events: i.e. Giuffre and Minsky possibly having had sex before the 2002 conference.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798900/marvin-minsky-jef...

This assumes TheVerge correctly interprets the incomplete unsealed records.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#757

Post by DoctorOetker » Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 10:40 AM UTC

nullc wrote: post #512

cjbprime wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Steven Pinker, Marvin Minsky It just sounds like you haven't been paying attention at all. Are you aware that a woman has claimed that she was forced to have sex with Marvin Minsky by Epstein on his island? https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/9/20798900/marvin-minsky-jef... Are you aware that Pinker has flown on the "Lolita Express" and helped with Epstein's legal defense, a legal defense that led to him avoiding a pri…

> Are you aware that a woman has claimed that she was forced to have sex with Marvin Minsky by Epstein on his island? Yet the her deposition does not actually make that claim, but rather that she was directed to approach Minsky for sex. A third party witness reports that that he turned her down and was apparently complaining about the incident. https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/339725/ If you were not aware of these th…

>- and potentially defaming an innocent person who isn't around to defend themself-

You mean "who is according to his own plans temporarily not around to defend himself"

Marving Minsky is probably "chillin" in Alcor, waiting for his mega-upload.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky#Death

These people will not be the first biological organisms to be reanimated: that would entail too much risk as a guiny pig.

More probable is that before trying to reanimate any of these Alcor members, the technology of uploading will need to be tested (at least on animals first) to verify the upload conserves the episodic memories of the biological original.

This means time will pass in the interim, and regulations will have time to adapt to such new realities.

An obvious conundrum is the concept of time in law. If you can pause a person's life and then continue it, what about crimes commited before the pause? How does the statute of limitations then apply?

It is entirely foreseeable that legislative bodies will decide it is the subjective experience of time that counts: punishments are of a reformative nature, and a person who did not evolve between his crimes and his apprehension has not reformed.

So yes, in such a future it will be a frequent occurence to accuse the dead, and there should be no shame in that.

So even if a victim of a reanimated person is by then older than a perpetrator of some crime, or if the victim is already dead, it is still in the interest of society to punish and reform the criminal.

People who laugh at the plebs and don't worry about crimes they commit in their quest for immortality (thinking that the ends justify the means, thinking they will have the literally last laugh) may be sourly surprised when they wake up to discover things don't work like that.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#758

Post by DoctorOetker » Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

rowanG077 wrote: post #750

DoctorOetker wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or perhaps the much simpler explanation that it was hush money / hush salary for victim(s) studying, PhD studying or working at Media Lab. What Ito received for himself was hush money to shut up about the hush money... so why would a smart person like Gates voluntarily pay someone else's hush money? why are we holding Gates (sponsoring his behaviour) to a lower standard than Ito (passing on hush money) if my hypothes…

That's a bold statement. Do you have any proof to back it up?

I do not know this, of all the different explanations I explored this to me is the simplest one that explains most observations, i.e. selecting for maximum likelihood.

For example people have been noting many unusual things: for example that Ito used to run a nightclub, I am not saying he was doing anything nefarious there, but if Epstein is looking for a hushable department heads to place his "expired" victims, one can easily imagine him compiling lists of department heads with their backgrounds, and Epsteins reading of a department head without college degree who once ran a nightclub may explain this as Epsteins preferred choice.

There's a longer writeup analyzing the Ito related news articles and especially Anand's communication with Ito and Hoffman that made me think this:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904781

also some of my other shorter comments here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20906307

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20909440

but the most important observation is in my opinion the inconsistency of Ito being perfectly aware he can't be publicly seen accepting Epstein's money, while at the same time supposedly allowing Epstein to publically brag about his funding MIT Media Lab. Ito would never agree to simple prestige-for-cash since it would deterministically lynch him. No, it's MIT who doesn't want to be outed as doubling for a Cloak of Charity to host a couple of broken souls for cash.

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#759

Post by DoctorOetker » Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

DoctorOetker wrote: post #758

rowanG077 wrote: post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bold statement. Do you have any proof to back it up?

I do not know this, of all the different explanations I explored this to me is the simplest one that explains most observations, i.e. selecting for maximum likelihood. For example people have been noting many unusual things: for example that Ito used to run a nightclub, I am not saying he was doing anything nefarious there, but if Epstein is looking for a hushable department heads to place his "expired" victims, one…

Also consider that Epstein & any of his child abuse clients / blackmail targets, would prefer providing the victims hush money through a cooperative intermediary (who may be lied to that it is mere compensation, from a plea deal, "perfectly legal" etc) for 2 reasons:

1) interacting directly is dangerous: the victim could set up a hidden camera, record conversations, document financial transactions, have witnesses present, or have her bank testify on the origin of the hush money transactions. Financial transactions may be used by the victim as financial acknowledgement of their involvement in a past crime. They want to keep the victim silent without creating an ever increasing trail of evidence.

2) by having the hush money pass through societal institutions, they can continuously undermine the victim's faith in society, to make sure she stays silent.

Also consider the timing of the MIT Media Lab scandal: after Epstein's death, and escalating as the new academic year comes closer and closer.

Upon Epstein's death the victim, department head are worried about what will happen to the flow of hush money. And (ex-?)clients that all payed through Epstein are now forced against their will to find a new intermediary, or interact with Ito directly, or ignore and risk the victim speaking out?

Re: Joi Ito Resigns from M.I.T. Media Lab After Outcry over Jeffrey Epstein Ties

#760

Post by dang » Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #561

anon2947 wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read a few more of Xeni's tweets, and wanted to get HN's honest opinion on them. It seems (to me) like a lot of people on Twitter (and HN?) are over-reacting. For example, Xeni's pinned tweet references this other tweet ( https://twitter.com/xeni/status/1165266579560521728 ), which implies that anybody who was ever at a dinner with Epstein should be considered complicit in Epstein's crimes. Take this quote, for exa…

Marvin Minsky was directly named by one of the victims in documents that were published a couple of days before Epatein’s convenient death, and those documents were mentioning that Minsky had directly sexually profited from an under-age woman. In other words he was a paedophile. I submitted an article detailing all this stuff on the day of Epstein’s death, it had reached the top links of HN in less than an hour but t…

Of course it isn't taboo, and the idea that we've been moderating HN to try to "suppress the Epstein story" or whatnot is beyond absurd; it makes one feel a bit sick.

I don't have a link handy but the Minsky connection was definitely discussed here.