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‘We May Have to Shoot Down This Aircraft’

politico.com

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Re: ‘We May Have to Shoot Down This Aircraft’

#181

Post by michaelt »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #149

>> I asked the vice president that question and he answered it in the affirmative. I asked again to be sure. “Sir, I am confirming that you have given permission?” For me, being a military member and an aviator—understanding the absolute depth of what that question was and what that answer was—I wanted to make sure that there was no mistake whatsoever about what was being asked. Without hesitation, in the affirmative…

Cheney certainly doesn't seem like a good guy, but I can't go along with you here.

First, the white house bunker is supposed to survive nuclear weapons. Was his life even on the line?

Second, do you imagine the air force base commander was the first person to ask 'are you sure'? I'd imagine between Bush, Rice, the aides in the room and the pentagon he'd probably have been asked that at least twice by other people already.

Re: ‘We May Have to Shoot Down This Aircraft’

#182

Post by dredmorbius »

gerbilly wrote: post #136
dredmorbius wrote: post #2

This is a phenomenal oral history of the events, learning of, and response to the events of 9/11. If an emergency is a circumstance in which ongoing realities are emergent and aren't predictable based on previous experience or world-models, this is a phenomenal example of those dynamics. Commander Anthony Barnes: That first hour was mass confusion because there was so much erroneous information. It was hard to tell w…

World models are called 'schemas' in psychology. There is lots of evidence that people process information by fitting it into schemas. There is an interesting tension between 'assimilating' information (taking in information that easily fits into your schema) and the need for 'accommodation' (acquiring new information that requires completely re-arranging your schema). There is a high cost to assimilation, which expl…

Any references on this you're aware of you could suggest?

Different disciplines tend to have different words for similar things.

Schemas, worldviews, frames, models, maps. All largely refer to the same thing.

Re: ‘We May Have to Shoot Down This Aircraft’

#183

Post by dTal »

mkl wrote: post #125
dTal wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no evidence the passengers suicided. They were attempting to save themselves. There was a struggle in the cockpit, and the aircraft crashed. It may even have been that the terrorists crashed the plane when they realized they weren't going to make it to their target. This meme is unhealthy, and disrepectful to the fallen.

There is no meme. There is no disrespect. There is no claim of suicide in that comment. Both the passengers and the fighter pilots were willing to do whatever it took to prevent the plane being used to kill a lot more people on the ground. The passengers' phone calls in the article suggest they knew they were likely to die whether acting or not, and as it happened they acted before the fighters could intercept. The a…

There is absolutely a meme. Google "United Flight 93 heroic sacrifice".

>a group of civilian passengers made more or less the same decision

What decision was this? The decision to sacrifice their own lives, as the fighter pilots were prepared to sacrifice theirs? Because that makes no sense. The passengers were trying to regain control of the aircraft to prevent it from crashing. Likely the hijackers downed the plane rather than relinquish control; the other possibility is that there was a struggle in the cockpit, and the plane crashed accidentally. What almost certainly did not happen was a passenger obtained full control of the aircraft, and intentionally flew it into the ground.

Re: ‘We May Have to Shoot Down This Aircraft’

#184

Post by jacquesm »

goto11 wrote: post #177
jacquesm wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stated goals and actual goals rarely align.

Yeah, maybe the actual goals of the terrorists was to make everybody wait longer in airports and getting annoyed? As just revenge for the betrayal of Sykes-Picot and the desecration of the holy lands.

No, the actual goal may have been to increase the visibility of Al Quaeda; serve as a recruitment poster and show that their group can hurt the biggest force on the planet with impunity in a way that can not be denied or spun.

The mantra 'never leave a crisis unused' is enough to explain everything else that followed. Getting the United States out of the middle East was never going to happen as a result of this, rather the opposite and that too would have the effect of driving more people in to the hands of the extremists.

Re: ‘We May Have to Shoot Down This Aircraft’

#185

Post by simonh »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #149

>> I asked the vice president that question and he answered it in the affirmative. I asked again to be sure. “Sir, I am confirming that you have given permission?” For me, being a military member and an aviator—understanding the absolute depth of what that question was and what that answer was—I wanted to make sure that there was no mistake whatsoever about what was being asked. Without hesitation, in the affirmative…

By this time wasn't he in the bunker? So his own person really wasn't in mortal danger anyway.

Re: ‘We May Have to Shoot Down This Aircraft’

#186

Post by gerbilly »

dredmorbius wrote: post #182
gerbilly wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

World models are called 'schemas' in psychology. There is lots of evidence that people process information by fitting it into schemas. There is an interesting tension between 'assimilating' information (taking in information that easily fits into your schema) and the need for 'accommodation' (acquiring new information that requires completely re-arranging your schema). There is a high cost to assimilation, which expl…

Any references on this you're aware of you could suggest? Different disciplines tend to have different words for similar things. Schemas, worldviews, frames, models, maps. All largely refer to the same thing.

It's a cognitive psychology term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(psychology)

And 'schemas' aren't just theoretical concepts, they have been validated with reaction time studies that strongly suggest they are a real organizing principle in the brain.

I.e.: It takes longer to react to a task that requires accommodation than to react when a task requires only assimilation.

Re: ‘We May Have to Shoot Down This Aircraft’

#187

Post by simonh »

goto11 wrote: post #140
nesadi wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By every measure, the terrorists accomplished their goals and won.

My impression was that the goal was to get the US presence out of the middle east. That goal failed pretty spectacularly.

Al Qaeda believes in a final apocalyptic war between Islam and basically everybody else, ending in a global Islamic Caliphate. Their goal is to provoke that war, which they believe they are already fighting. They just want everybody else to join in.

Re: ‘We May Have to Shoot Down This Aircraft’

#188

Post by dredmorbius »

murraybhenson wrote: post #168
dredmorbius wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the Web wasn't geared for high load. Information was developing so rapidly that online was really the only effective place to go for information (such as it was -- there was rampant speculation). Many sites rapidly slimmed down their services and offered lightweight versions. A few lighter-weight sites remained up, notably, at the time, Slashdot. NPR refers to 9/11 as the event which made clear that the netw…

It's funny that you mentioned Slashdot. I was living in Portland (OR) at the time I first saw the news on Slashdot. I turned on the TV to confirm. I don't remember the rest of that day except for being jumpy, as was everyone.

I got the news by radio -- even before hearing what had happened, it was clear by the anchor's voice (Bob Edwards, NPR), that something was very wrong. Similar to the Saturday in 2003 where Scott Simon's voice pressaged the Columbia disaster before I heard the words. (Knowing that the Shuttle was landing that day suggested the issue before hearing that specifically.)

I'd been due to travel to a client site, and called. I'd only heard that a plane had struck the tower, the client added that it was two planes, and the towers were down. "This is war" was my immediate response.

Then I headed to Slashdot to find out WTF was going on, as fighter jets sortied overhead.

Surreal times.

Re: ‘We May Have to Shoot Down This Aircraft’

#189

Post by EForEndeavour »

kristofferR wrote: post #174
cantrevealname wrote: post #31

The article has photos from inside the bunker during the actual crisis. Who took the pictures? It seems that VP Cheney’s official photographer went into the bunker with him: On July 24, 2015, the National Archives and Records Administration released 356 photos shot on Sept. 11, 2001, by Vice President Dick Cheney’s official photographer David Bohrer. The publication was the result of a decade-long fight by Frontline…

Interesting to know that Robert Mueller was in the room.

Mueller officially became FBI Director on September 4, 2001, so his presence isn't surprising.

Re: ‘We May Have to Shoot Down This Aircraft’

#190

Post by goto11 »

jacquesm wrote: post #184
goto11 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, maybe the actual goals of the terrorists was to make everybody wait longer in airports and getting annoyed? As just revenge for the betrayal of Sykes-Picot and the desecration of the holy lands.

No, the actual goal may have been to increase the visibility of Al Quaeda; serve as a recruitment poster and show that their group can hurt the biggest force on the planet with impunity in a way that can not be denied or spun. The mantra 'never leave a crisis unused' is enough to explain everything else that followed. Getting the United States out of the middle East was never going to happen as a result of this, rath…

Does that mean they would have lost if they had actually achieved the stated goal?
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