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CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

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Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#281

Post by Mtinie »

mullingitover wrote: post #266
Mtinie wrote: post #121

Who benefits from a temporary demand reduction or regulatory shift in vaping? * Health advocates * Alcoholic beverage producers * Tobacco producers (though I believe they have gone all-in on vaping as a healthier replacement) * Black- and grey-market cannabis growers who prefer not to concentrate their product Who else should be on that list? I’m not suggesting a false-flag or major conspiracy, simply that some group…

> Who benefits from a temporary demand reduction or regulatory shift in vaping? Every state receiving funds in the Master Settlement Agreement. They are effectively partnering with the tobacco companies and they lose money when people successfully quit smoking.

Interesting point. Do you know if the Master Settlement Agreement requires people to stop smoking cigarettes, specifically, or does it broadly classify any usage of nicotine-containing products as "continuing to smoke?" I could see someone who vapes being naively classified as a "smoker."

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#282

Post by chrshawkes »

lonelappde wrote: post #255
keithwhor wrote: post #224

When the CDC tells people to stop eating a specific food because of disease outbreak, even if rare, people stop eating that food. When you dive in to the comments here, keep in mind a number of the posts are from addicts minimizing cognitive dissonance. The internet would’ve looked the same when cigarettes were first blamed for lung disease as well.

When there is an e coli outbreak, authorities are very specific about which batch of produce was affected. They don't say to stop eating all spinach or all vegetables.

They don't work magic dude. One of the vials came from a legal dispensary in Oregon. Thoughts on that?

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#283

Post by MiroF »

milofeynman wrote: post #65
perseidbath wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a thread on Reddit[0], written by a cannibis biologist: “The reason [vitamin e is] being found in black market carts is because black market manufacturers are incentivized to dilute out their product as much as possible to maximize profit. They don't have to provide you with potency numbers, they just need the cartridge to look plausibly full of distillate. This means they use any of the aforementioned dilution…

That person is incorrect. I know a toxicologist who actually had one of the carts tested due to a patient with these symptoms and the high potency was accurate. Not something I can source but the data is out there in the toxicology circles.

I've also heard talk that Vitamin E does something to increase the potency?

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#284

Post by mullingitover »

Mtinie wrote: post #281
mullingitover wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who benefits from a temporary demand reduction or regulatory shift in vaping? Every state receiving funds in the Master Settlement Agreement. They are effectively partnering with the tobacco companies and they lose money when people successfully quit smoking.

Interesting point. Do you know if the Master Settlement Agreement requires people to stop smoking cigarettes, specifically, or does it broadly classify any usage of nicotine-containing products as "continuing to smoke?" I could see someone who vapes being naively classified as a "smoker."

The agreement doesn't require the states to do anything. They simply cash tobacco checks, nothing requires them to spend the money on tobacco harm mitigation. There's a recommended level of funding the CDC advises: no state funds prevention at that level.[1]

>Over the years, the states have collected tremendous amounts of commercial tobacco revenue, but are spending little of it on tobacco prevention and cessation programs. According to A State-by-State Look at the 1998 Tobacco Settlement 19 Years Later, states will collect $27.5 billion from the MSA and taxes in Fiscal Year 2018, but will spend less than 3 percent of it on programs to prevent kids from smoking and help smokers quit. No state currently funds tobacco prevention at the level recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC); 29 states and the District of Columbia spend less than 20 percent of the CDC recommendation.

Thus the states are effectively partnered with the tobacco industry.

[1] https://www.publichealthlawcenter.org/topics/commercial-toba...

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#285

Post by cptskippy »

ad-hominem wrote: post #190
zaphar wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All three of those elements are not usually vaporized and then inhaled in large quantities. Extrapolation from their effects when ingested is unlikely to apply in these cases. Your conclusion does not follow from the evidence.

propelene glycol is and has been used as an air santizer for a very long time. https://archive.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/web/pdf/pr...

In your document the Cat 4 exposure dose was stated to be 2.34 mg/L, a recent study[0] found that inhalation exposure at 0.442 mg/L resulted in slight irritation.

What's the exposure when vaping?

The document you link to actually avoids addressing Aggregate Exposure by stating there's insufficient information to draw any conclusions.

> "Since toxicological endpoints for risk assessment were not identified based on the available data, an aggregate risk assessment was not conducted for propylene glycol and dipropylene glycol."

Isn't Aggregate Exposure what we're concerned about with Vaping?

Additionally these studies all talk about aeroslized or nebulized pg, vaporizers are thermal in nature. Does heating pg matter?

The CDC is basically saying "We don't know what this shit does because no studies have ever exposed people to it in this manner. Until we know more you should probably not vape it".

[0] Dalton P, Soreth B, Maute C, Novaleski C, and Banton M (2018). "Lack of respiratory and ocular effects following acute propylene glycol exposure in healthy humans". Inhal. Toxicol. 30: 124–132.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#287

Post by joveian »

bfuller wrote: post #240
johngrefe wrote: post #33

I had a startup in Vaping(nicotine) and am still fairly in touch with the industry. There has been no major innovation in nicotine eliquid that would cause a sudden cluster of issues. It's stayed pretty constant since 2013 with the exception of Salt Nicotine, which Pax labs has a gras study published for. The majority of cases seems to be THC carts where it can be confirmed. One case was confirmed from a dispensary i…

>One case was confirmed from a dispensary in Oregon can you source this for me? i keep hearing it but cant confirm

The last I saw in the Oregonian a few days ago they said that they suspect it is from one of two dispensaries but are not certain. Possibly they confirmed since then but I haven't seen it in the news at least if so.

The article (generally better than the submitted one IMO): https://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana/2019/09/vaping-death-an...

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#288

Post by cptskippy »

aarong11 wrote: post #259
dragonwriter wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The digestive system and the respiratory system are quite different systems. You can safely drink lots of water. A fairly small quantity in your lungs is a big problem.

Just a sidenote, a lot of nebulized drugs also contain propylene glycol. I know it's not quite the same delivery mechanism as vaping, but it does end up in the lungs.

In addition to the delivery method being slightly different (because heat) the dosage is much higher.

The few studies out there, mostly related to theatrical fog, state that it causes irritation to mucus membranes. Is that what doctors are seeing in vaper's lungs?

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#289

Post by andrewksl »

I wonder if this reddit comment was on to something: https://www.reddit.com/r/CannabisExtracts/comments/b1w76g/tr...

Some background information:

- Cannabis, particularly THC, extracts are quite viscous and require thinning in order to feed into a vaporizer’s heating element. In other words, even for very pure use, some thinning is necessary.

- Thinning agents include propylene glycol (PG) and polyethylene glycol (PEG), also commonly used in nicotine liquids

- A market for terpenes as a thinning agent has emerged amidst uncertainty about the long term effects of PG and PEG

I wonder if mineral oils sold as terpenes are behind the lipoid pneumonia as the commenter mentions. Considering at least some of the carts were tested to be of advertised potency, I could conceive of a contaminated batch of “terpenes” making it into a well-meaning producer’s cartridges.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#290

Post by JamesBarney »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #264
JamesBarney wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if someone doesn't have plans to cease smoking should they continue to smoke cigarettes instead of switching to vaping?

My personal opinion is yes . What mean to say is, if you are a purveyor of nicotine products in a professional manner , probably best to not recommend nicotine containing products outside the context of smoking cessation . Though this line of inquiry rapid segues in to a philosophical debate.

Just curious.

But is this because you think vaping is more dangerous than smoking?

Or because you think enabling a harmful activity, even if it's a less harmful than the activity it's being substituted for makes you morally culpable? So providing methadone would be a moral wrong?

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