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Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

latimes.com

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Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#141

Post by magduf »

vorpalhex wrote: post #81
aedron wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I flagged it. It is political news and has no place on HN. It's a slippery slope to even more stories about politics and current events, that have nothing to do with the site's raison d'être. (BTW I'm just a regular user, not an admin or speaking for any admin)

HN is not only technical news. It is all news which is of interest to the community at large including economics, politics, philosophy and so on. HN is not slashdot.

Slashdot still exists?

Anyway, yes, HN isn't just tech news, but it does seem to have a strong aversion to highly political topics because they always, always devolve into angry arguments and HN values "civility" over all else. So the parent is right IMO: this really doesn't seem to be a good place to discuss this.

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#142

Post by nerfhammer »

dear wrote: post #68
consumer451 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What can you do about this? Pretty much nothing. China is the second largest economy in the world, and has the second most powerful military. While there were certainly issues with TPP[0], it would have given us some options in regards to China which we no longer have. AFAIK, that was a large part of the point of TPP. We could have had Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Si…

If China doesn't follow WTO and any international laws that go against their benefits, why do you expect this TPP would have any effect on them?

China was not included in the TPP as the entire point of the TPP was to strengthen Asian economies other than China.

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#143

Post by graeme »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #132
graeme wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Britain wanted to give HK democracy in the 1960s, but China said they would invade. Britain democratized and/or gave independence to basically every other colony at that time. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/world/asia/china-began-pu...

Was it a democracy when it was a colony?

No. As the article says, communist China threatened to invade if Britain made any moves in that direction in the 1960s.

Since people have downvoted this, here's text straight from article:

"The documents, part of a batch of typewritten diplomatic dispatches requested by reporters from two Hong Kong newspapers, reveal that Chinese leaders were so opposed to the prospect of a democratic Hong Kong that they threatened to invade should London attempt to change the status quo."

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#144

Post by graeme »

dragonsh wrote: post #130
graeme wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Britain wanted to give HK democracy in the 1960s, but China said they would invade. Britain democratized and/or gave independence to basically every other colony at that time. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/world/asia/china-began-pu...

I already commented on this issue on another post so won't repeat again. Britain never had intention to give democracy to Hong Kong which will require it to make economic contributions to a colony. Their first priority has always been to safeguard their own economic interests. [1] [1] https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/1419999...

Did you read the article I linked? It talked about the 1960s and china warning britain it would invade if democracy were attempted.

Your article is about the 1997 handover and how britain had limited room for maneuver. It absolutely does nit say what you say it says.

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#145

Post by greedo »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #38
H8crilA wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This situation we're in is making me really uneasy. WW2 was preceded by tariffs and a freezing of global trade, which messed up the German economy too much, pushed it into an inflationary debt crisis and eventually created Nazism. Nazism was a response to a perceived foreign threat that "did a lot of damage to our people, and it's time for us to be the best". Say the trade war ends up badly and the Chinese debt bubbl…

Let's not forget that the hyperinflation of the Weimar Republic was, in large part, intentional. They printed money to pay the Versailles reparations, and to inflate them away. Obviously it escalated out of control, but they weren't mere innocent victims of external events.

Weren't reparations specified in Gold marks to specifically address concerns of inflating away the debt?

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#146

Post by godelski »

VK538FY wrote: post #47
__m wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By staying out of it. Hongkong belongs to China just as Catalonia belongs to Spain, or California to the US. Imagine China interfering with that.

I'm probably a bigger fan of self-determination than you: if the people of HK, Catalonia or California wish to follow their own road, I support them, but they need to work that out on their own. When those movements are even partly the product of foreign intervention and are given uncritical coverage in the western press, that is a giant warning sign. We've been there before many times yet we never learn.

> When those movements are even partly the product of foreign intervention

I feel this is a cop out. We live in a global economy and so all these things are highly connected. Your statement implies that our reporting of these events is intervention. May be influence, but I'm not sure that would be intervention.

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#147

Post by greedo »

godelski wrote: post #139
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #17

What can you do about this? Pretty much nothing. China is the second largest economy in the world, and has the second most powerful military. In addition, what they view as the integrity of China is one of their biggest priorities. In addition, they have always viewed British control of Hong Kong as a national humiliation and are bent on erasing all traces of that memory. The way it stands right now, China can inflic…

> What can you do about this? Pretty much nothing. A lot. And what you can do depends who you are. Hongkongers can keep doing what they are doing. I'm sorry, but killing everyone in HK is not an option for China. Not only would it start a global war, as genocides tend to do, it would create unrest in the mainland, and frankly people are a resource. You can't govern the dead. I frequently hear the arguments from Ameri…

If China decides to solve HK with force, there's nothing any other country will do militarily. As much as liberal Western democracies want to protect civil rights across the world, nothing militarily will be done. China is too strong, HK is too far away, and the West has let its military strength atrophy too far. Do you think Germany will ignore Bismarck's dictum?

"...not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier."

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#148

Post by y2kenny »

dragonsh wrote: post #103
Aeolun wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universal suffrage is a great way to get a lot of this changed. If your only choices for CEO are billionaires or their friends, there isn’t much you can do (if you can vote at all).

Economic issue should have been raised in protest and could have converted to mass movement to reject a house of car park size or make it illegal for developer to build such home. Force government through peaceful protest to take measures like Singapore for house, health and education. Universal suffrage is not a panacea, indeed in many democracies money decides who become the head of state. In two largest democracy…

Are you familiar with Hong Kong's public housing system? [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Hong_Kong

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#149

Post by ddeck »

FabHK wrote: post #126
ddeck wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am quite surprised that the Chinese have allowed the crony capitalism that the Hong Kong Government system is based on to continue unabated. The continually rising levels of inequality that it has generated have been an obvious risk to social stability for a long time, which presumably the CCP are very keen to maintain. The government and press regularly celebrate achieving the title of "Freest economy on earth" (t…

> I am quite surprised that the Chinese have allowed the crony capitalism that the Hong Kong Government system is based on to continue unabated. Eh? You have a similar crony capitalist system in mainland China, don't you. And the understanding in HK is that there is sort of tacit "gentlemen's agreement" between Beijing and the HK elites: Beijing doesn't interfere too much with the rich and powerful in HK and their (c…

You do indeed, but the the power distribution is far from even, as many a Chinese tycoon has discovered when they've come out on the wrong side of Beijing and found themselves in prison. There are always laws that can be selectively brought to bear when required.

My point is that the rich and powerful in HK are unlikely to do anything that irks Beijing. They don't need to be bribed into cooperating and will do as they are told regardless.

The risk to social stability of the status quo and the liklihood of it putting a significant portion of the population on the streets protesting seems a much greater risk.

Re: Eyewitnesses describe brutal beatings by HK police

#150

Post by vorpalhex »

magduf wrote: post #141
vorpalhex wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is not only technical news. It is all news which is of interest to the community at large including economics, politics, philosophy and so on. HN is not slashdot.

Slashdot still exists? Anyway, yes, HN isn't just tech news, but it does seem to have a strong aversion to highly political topics because they always, always devolve into angry arguments and HN values "civility" over all else. So the parent is right IMO: this really doesn't seem to be a good place to discuss this.

It doesn't seem to usually devolve into arguments (heated exchanges), but it does tend to include debates. Just because not everyone agrees with you (or even each other) doesn't mean the topic isn't worth discussing, or that the comments are uncivil.
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