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CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

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Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#81

Post by atlasunshrugged »

Reelin wrote: post #80
atlasunshrugged wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, yes, safer alternative to smoking cigarettes Fair enough, I'm sure it's not healthy to chronically inhale anything other than air > If you're asking about drugs with similar effects to nicotine that are less addictive, I'm not aware of any. You could always purchase vaping liquid that doesn't contain any nicotine though. I was asking that but a broader question for me is, are there any safe replacements for ci…

> it seems like the jury is still out on how much better they actually are than cigarettes No. IT IS NOT. You have been mislead. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, there is currently a lot of FUD and propaganda surrounding vaping. Perhaps due to the term "e-cigarette"? Other than artificial flavors, the major constituents in the liquid are what I listed above - propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, and nicotine. Onl…

Do you have any solid RCTs or meta analysis you could point me to about how much better they are than cigarettes?

Agreed, there's a lot of FUD, but a lot of it is coming from sources that give me a lot of hesitation to doubt (lots of public health leaders, tobacco control groups, WHO people)

I understand alcohol or weed is more harmful than vaping, I'm personally just interested in cigarettes as that seems to be the replacement part, I'm not sure someone would quit drinking or smoking weed and replace with vaping

Edit: I know you pointed me to a solid report in an earlier comment, any additional ones? There are huge numbers of reports on tobacco in general and it's easy to find 1 or 2 reports reflecting one opinion or another

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#82

Post by testis321 »

Vaping is great!

Take someone who smokes two packs a day, give him a niccotine vape, and he gets all the 'high' he needs to fuel his addiciton, with (by some sources) only 10% of the "bad things" going in his lungs (compared to cigarettes). Less coughing, easier to reduce the dosage (just buy a liquid with less nicotine - you still keep your rutine and cigarette breaks, but slowly lower your addiction level).

...but...

Then youtubers with smoke challenges come, and tutti frutti bubblegum pina colada reeses pieces flavoured liquids come... and 13yo kids (that would never have smoked otherwise) start buying vapes. And not just any 'normal' vapes (that the people from the top of this post use), but the ones with very high power heating elements, producing HUGE amounts of smoke (for the youtube likes), and making the "bad stuff" intake into lungs comparable to actually smoking 2+ packs of cigarettes.

...and now, when even that's not enough, someone's selling some "special" (or just really shitty, but really cheap) e-liquids, that make you sick.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#83

Post by chroma »

Kiro wrote: post #61
chroma wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something like 400,000 people a year die in the US due to smoking. Vaping is mostly a substitute for smoking. But even if millions of non-smokers start vaping, it's a net positive.

Not when it turns out vaping is even more deadly than smoking.

If vaping is that deadly then fog machines should be killing people all over the place. It's the same technology.

The only time vaping causes more harm than smoking is when people use dangerous solvents (eg: not propylene glycol) or when batteries explode.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#84

Post by atlasunshrugged »

testis321 wrote: post #82

Vaping is great! Take someone who smokes two packs a day, give him a niccotine vape, and he gets all the 'high' he needs to fuel his addiciton, with (by some sources) only 10% of the "bad things" going in his lungs (compared to cigarettes). Less coughing, easier to reduce the dosage (just buy a liquid with less nicotine - you still keep your rutine and cigarette breaks, but slowly lower your addiction level). ...but.…

I think if it really was purely a device for cessation then this could be solved by putting it behind the counter and requiring a prescription. I remember before weed was legal in California there would be a doc office next to a pot shop and you would get your prescription and then walk in. I imagine there would be a market for people who wanted to quit to go to a 5 min doc meeting, they'd verify you're a smoker and write you a prescription and then you could pick it up with any flavor your heart desired. That said, I'm not a big fan of creating another inefficiency in the healthcare market but it does seem like a way to stop the secondary effect of new users entering the market in a major way by creating a nontrivial hoop to jump through

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#85

Post by troydavis »

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #77
Reelin wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> vaping being a safer alternative A safer alternative to what? Smoking cigarettes? There's absolutely no question that it is. One is a plant product (smoke is bad to inhale) that naturally contains a number chemicals that you probably don't want to be consuming. On top of this, there are additional additives (which vary by manufacturer) that also have significant health effects. Overview ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w…

Sorry, yes, safer alternative to smoking cigarettes Fair enough, I'm sure it's not healthy to chronically inhale anything other than air > If you're asking about drugs with similar effects to nicotine that are less addictive, I'm not aware of any. You could always purchase vaping liquid that doesn't contain any nicotine though. I was asking that but a broader question for me is, are there any safe replacements for ci…

Here’s some detailed analyses from neutral third parties about just how much less hazardous vaping is than smoking: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18717697#18718028

(For THC, strongly consider eliminating lung damage entirely by consuming edibles instead of either vaping or smoking.)

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#86

Post by atlasunshrugged »

troydavis wrote: post #85
atlasunshrugged wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, yes, safer alternative to smoking cigarettes Fair enough, I'm sure it's not healthy to chronically inhale anything other than air > If you're asking about drugs with similar effects to nicotine that are less addictive, I'm not aware of any. You could always purchase vaping liquid that doesn't contain any nicotine though. I was asking that but a broader question for me is, are there any safe replacements for ci…

Here’s some detailed analyses from neutral third parties about just how much less hazardous vaping is than smoking: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18717697#18718028 (For THC, strongly consider eliminating lung damage entirely by consuming edibles instead of either vaping or smoking.)

Thanks for this!

Agreed on THC, but I'm purely looking at cigarettes/tobacco right now

A few Swedes have also highly recommended looking into Snus as an alternative and I need to do some more research there

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#87

Post by tom_mellior »

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #84
testis321 wrote: post #82

Vaping is great! Take someone who smokes two packs a day, give him a niccotine vape, and he gets all the 'high' he needs to fuel his addiciton, with (by some sources) only 10% of the "bad things" going in his lungs (compared to cigarettes). Less coughing, easier to reduce the dosage (just buy a liquid with less nicotine - you still keep your rutine and cigarette breaks, but slowly lower your addiction level). ...but.…

I think if it really was purely a device for cessation then this could be solved by putting it behind the counter and requiring a prescription. I remember before weed was legal in California there would be a doc office next to a pot shop and you would get your prescription and then walk in. I imagine there would be a market for people who wanted to quit to go to a 5 min doc meeting, they'd verify you're a smoker and…

"Inefficiency" is a weird word for including doctors in healthcare.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#88

Post by ozzmotik »

slau wrote: post #43
moksly wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure vaping is actually reducing potential harm? Because our national health agency isn’t[1]. As I understand it, a few brands come with a lower risk of certain tobacco induced cancers compared to smoking. Which is harm reduction, I guess, but research is suggesting that all vaping comes with greater risk to the respiratory system and heart. Of course the real issue in evaluating the safety of e-cigerates is…

I’ve stated this before: cigarettes will kill me with a 100% probability (I was smoking over a pack a day). Maybe vaping will not kill me. Maybe I’ll grow a third arm in 20 years. I don’t know. But I have to play the odds; “100% certainty” vs “maybe not”, I know which one I’m going for. Also, I’ve gone from 9mg of nicotine to 1mg in 2 years, because vaping allows me to monitor and measure exactly how much nicotine I…

i would argue that on a long enough timescale, anything will 100% kill you. not trying to be cheeky, more just trying to say that that sort of argument only really works for people who are active antismokers; most smokers (i think, from personal experience) are very aware of the danger of smoking, but feel that it offsets some condition of reality that makes it more tolerable even compared to the reduced lifetime. that's just my perspective though

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#89

Post by testis321 »

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #84
testis321 wrote: post #82

Vaping is great! Take someone who smokes two packs a day, give him a niccotine vape, and he gets all the 'high' he needs to fuel his addiciton, with (by some sources) only 10% of the "bad things" going in his lungs (compared to cigarettes). Less coughing, easier to reduce the dosage (just buy a liquid with less nicotine - you still keep your rutine and cigarette breaks, but slowly lower your addiction level). ...but.…

I think if it really was purely a device for cessation then this could be solved by putting it behind the counter and requiring a prescription. I remember before weed was legal in California there would be a doc office next to a pot shop and you would get your prescription and then walk in. I imagine there would be a market for people who wanted to quit to go to a 5 min doc meeting, they'd verify you're a smoker and…

They do that with cigarettes but kids still get them (atleast in my country). Banning a device is useless, beceause the same vaporizer could be used to other stuff, and it'd be still sold online (from places like china), and customs don't really check every package for what's inside (especially since it usually says "electronic gadget" on the CN22 form). Banning liquids would be easier, but in some places (eg, here), the liquids are sold separately as a mix of glycerins and a food-grade arome, where neither of those can be banned. Nicottine can be (and is), but while it's addictive, most of the "bad stuff" is in other ingredients, that again, cannot be baned easily. ...and you can also order niccotine concentrate online...

so yeah, it's hard. Making it unnatractive is a lot easier procedure with drugs and "bad things", but a machine that makes huge clouds of tutti frutti falvoured smoke is.. wel... fun.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#90

Post by atlasunshrugged »

tom_mellior wrote: post #87
atlasunshrugged wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if it really was purely a device for cessation then this could be solved by putting it behind the counter and requiring a prescription. I remember before weed was legal in California there would be a doc office next to a pot shop and you would get your prescription and then walk in. I imagine there would be a market for people who wanted to quit to go to a 5 min doc meeting, they'd verify you're a smoker and…

"Inefficiency" is a weird word for including doctors in healthcare.

I'd say it's an inefficiency in the case I referenced because I don't think it's 'healthcare' per se. If you go to your primary care physician during a checkup or because of an issue (even if it's this specifically) then I would consider that healthcare, but what I saw was basically this tack on service that was rubber stamping anyone who paid $X for an appointment as cleared to use medical marijuana and I would consider than an inefficiency since the step was purely created as an administrative hurdle
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