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Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’

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21–30 of 142 posts

Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’

#21

If you're looking for a replacement you don't understand the problem. The problem isn't that P=.05 is an arbitrary measure of significance. The problem is that only publishing significant results is a bias against the null hypothesis . Let's say you're doing a study of flipping coins. The null hypothesis is that the coin is evenly weighted. If the null hypothesis is true, when you flip a coin once, it will come up he…

Good explanation! A typo: "requirement of P<.5" → "requirement of P<.05".

Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’

#22
post #15
post #11

Major problem with "significance" is that in some areas of research (say psychology), it's possible to gather lots of data(let 1000 people fill complex questionnaire) and from that data to fish for theory that's significant (in your sample Republicans might have been dumber than Democrats). But given the size of the sample and number of theories you test, you are bound to find something significant even if that isn't…

Not a statistician myself but in a visualization project we did a number of years ago that needed a quick fix for this we used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonferroni_correction .

The bonferroni correction is a post-test for testing between multiple pairs in groups, it doesnt really fix the problem of cherrypicking hypotheses

Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’

#23
post #21

If you're looking for a replacement you don't understand the problem. The problem isn't that P=.05 is an arbitrary measure of significance. The problem is that only publishing significant results is a bias against the null hypothesis . Let's say you're doing a study of flipping coins. The null hypothesis is that the coin is evenly weighted. If the null hypothesis is true, when you flip a coin once, it will come up he…

Good explanation! A typo: "requirement of P<.5" → "requirement of P<.05".

Thanks! I've corrected it.

Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’

#24
post #20

The problem isn't p-values, the problem is a binary distinction between p=0.049 and p=0.051. The problem would go away if everyone understood p-values, or we replaced use of the term "statistically significant" with "3% probability we're just seeing a pattern by accident". Renaming the term to something that sounds just as binary isn't any different.

Scientists have a duty to communicate what is true and what is not though. Passing that judgement duty to the general public is irresponsible and unwise (it's easy to claim anything with flawed / misleading statistics). Ideally someone would have come up with a framework that is better than statistic tests to justify levels of truth, but so far we dont have one

When you've got empirically gathered data, pretty much every type of analysis you can do with it comes under the umbrella of "statistics". I think any better truth measuring framework can only be statistical.

Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’

#25
post #8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about replication?

Replication until statistically significance is found?

Ehe. Yeah if one insists enough this can happen. It's not a panacea, and really switching to any one measure will cause it to be hacked in the end. The solution is probably multiple objectives, eventually including the reputation of the researchers as well

nobody has solved the trust issue

Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’

#26
post #11

Major problem with "significance" is that in some areas of research (say psychology), it's possible to gather lots of data(let 1000 people fill complex questionnaire) and from that data to fish for theory that's significant (in your sample Republicans might have been dumber than Democrats). But given the size of the sample and number of theories you test, you are bound to find something significant even if that isn't…

Many people talk about preregistration, but I'm not sure it would result in the hoped benefits.

What I predict would happen: - either lots of studies are allowed to preregister, most of which cannot reject the null hypothesis. You end up with a lot of "boring" null-result papers in those high-profile journals that nobody gets excited about and nobody gets promoted for and no media coverage happens, bad marketing for universities and research centers.

- or there would be a strict filter for the pre-registration, so that researchers cannot chase their gut intuitions, some authority would need to approve the study even before it's done. This hinders research and hinders the dissemination of truly unexpected discoveries.

The human incentives are way deeper than any one solution could touch on. The whole science funding structure requires flashy and sexy results that are just not possible to produce on that scale.

Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’

#27

The problem isn't p-values, the problem is a binary distinction between p=0.049 and p=0.051. The problem would go away if everyone understood p-values, or we replaced use of the term "statistically significant" with "3% probability we're just seeing a pattern by accident". Renaming the term to something that sounds just as binary isn't any different.

This is a a really common misconception about p values (that they can be interpreted as p(H0|x), or "probability of the null hypothesis given the data") when a p-value is in fact p(x|H0), or "probability of observing data at least this extreme given that the null hypothesis is true

Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’

#28

The problem isn't p-values, the problem is a binary distinction between p=0.049 and p=0.051. The problem would go away if everyone understood p-values, or we replaced use of the term "statistically significant" with "3% probability we're just seeing a pattern by accident". Renaming the term to something that sounds just as binary isn't any different.

It's worth to point that "3% probability we're just seeing a pattern by accident" is only right when you understand it as "in the world here our hypothesis is wrong the same experiment would give such pattern in 3% cases", not as "given such result probability that we are wrong is 3%".

Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’

#29
post #24
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scientists have a duty to communicate what is true and what is not though. Passing that judgement duty to the general public is irresponsible and unwise (it's easy to claim anything with flawed / misleading statistics). Ideally someone would have come up with a framework that is better than statistic tests to justify levels of truth, but so far we dont have one

When you've got empirically gathered data, pretty much every type of analysis you can do with it comes under the umbrella of "statistics". I think any better truth measuring framework can only be statistical.

There are very few principles in science. Statistics tests seem to be something where scientists unanimouslu agree. Another is models, and applying occam's razor to choose the one with less parameters. Perhaps one could also justify choosing a hypothesis on the basis that it is simpler.

Re: Statisticians want to abandon science’s standard measure of ‘significance’

#30

If you're looking for a replacement you don't understand the problem. The problem isn't that P=.05 is an arbitrary measure of significance. The problem is that only publishing significant results is a bias against the null hypothesis . Let's say you're doing a study of flipping coins. The null hypothesis is that the coin is evenly weighted. If the null hypothesis is true, when you flip a coin once, it will come up he…

What a super good explanation! Thanks!
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